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Dominae
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After some thought, I've decided to continue using the same convention to assign Laborers to city tiles that I've been using all along in the MoI recommendations.
A little example will make the convention clear. In the screenshot below, the blue letters represent our three cities thus far. Apolyton is working the tiles marked in red, Mingopolis the yellow one and Bananatopia the light blue tile. The MoI recommendations would represent this in the following way:
Apolyton: Laborers 1, 2, 33
Mingopolis: Laborer 6
Bananatopia: Laborer 9
To figure these numbers out, just put your hand on the numeric keypad, and imagine you're standing at a given city. Then, using the keypad, mentally "walk" the directions written above. Where you end up is where a Laborer is assigned. Commas seperate different Laborers, so Apolyton clearly has 3 assigned Laborers, while the other two only have 1 Laborer.
In this way, each city forms its own coordinate system, and it is a simple matter of "walking" from the origin (the city tile proper) to where the Laborers are meant to be, using the keypad.
 Attachment: example.jpg
This has been downloaded 98 time(s).
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Dominae
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It has been pointed out that there can be some confusion with this convention, since there are many different (equal-distance) "paths" from one tile to another. For example, 23 is the same thing as 32. Thus, I propose the following sub-convention:
a. If one path consists of a sequence of identical numbers, it is to be preferred over a one that consists of a sequence of different numbers. For instance 33 is to be preferred over 26.
b. If (a) is not applicable, the cardinal point directions are always to be used first in a sequence of numbers in a path. The cardinal point directions are 2 (South), 6 (East), 8 (North) and 4 (West). So, 23 is to be preferred over 32.
If everyone follows this sub-convention, there should be no confusion among paths.
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Dominae
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I believe this is the best method to adopt, for various reasons:
1. Unit movement and Laborer assignment use the same convention (and sub-convention).
2. There is no need to remember an arbitrary numbering system on the city grid for Laborer assignment. If you've got a screenshot of a city in front of you (or you have it in memory), it should be just as easy to follow the "keypad paths", than it is remember a set of numbers. Of course, the keypad paths method (the one I'm supporting) defines a unique number for each tile, but these numbers make sense.
3. Everyone has access to a numeric keypad, but the arbitrary grid numbering system may not always be available (unless you commit it to memory).
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dejon
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The MoI is free do as he pleases, of course. 
Personally, I have never understood why people use the numberpad for directions instead of N,W,S,E (and NW, NE, SE,SW). Using numbers for directions instead of the directions just seems silly. The "potential for confusion" comes entirely from this convention, rather than from the alternatives for identifying city tiles.
This way, we are going to use numbers for both directions and tile reference - what could be more confusing?
Using directional reference as tile reference also runs the risk of people thinking that the tile reference is to be used to get to the tile.
Example: Someone says "Please mine the tile 21 from CityX." The player then moves a worker from CityX to 2, which has no road, and won't get to the requested tile until next turn, when if they moved 1,2, over a roaded tile, they get there in one turn.
I know that example is very specific, and assuming a bit of foolishness on behalf of the player, but still, I can't see much sence in using one method for two different things: movement and city tile reference.
In the SPDG there was no agreed convention for movement, but everyone, afaik, used N,W,S,E - which is why the city tile numbering system posed no problems.
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Dominae
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The people who use the keypad for movement in their SP games will have no problem with the system I'm proposing. It takes about half a second to get into the right mind-frame before all these numbers "make sense". The people who gotten used to the GoTo command, on the other hand, fall back to what is presumably most familiar, the cardinal point directions. If the latter camp is in fact bigger in this demogame, I'll gladly change the convention (the MoI "does whatever he pleases", but only after conferring with all the interested Citizens).
And your argument that the keypad path system creates additional confusion when roads are present is, as you said yourself, quite weak. All of us have been playing Civ3 long enough to know how best to get from point A to point B along roads (especially the Consuls). The recommendations I put up are not meant dictate how a Worker is supposed to get from A to B, they simply single out where point B is meant to be. The actual path taken is irrelevant.
Dominae
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Dominae
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dejon, I value your opinion, but please put some effort into understand what I'm proposing. It seems to me that you like your idea better because it's your idea.
The convention I'm proposing is simple:
1. Use the keypad to indicate where a Laborer is to be placed, starting at the city tile itself.
2. To avoid confusion concerning the multiple ways of getting to a given tile (as BigFree pointed out), always go up/down/left/right first instead of diagonally.
I realise my original posts were somewhat formal, but that's just me showing off  .
For those who use the keypad for movement, there is nothing more simple. I'm assuming you do not. I would honestly like to hear from those who do not use the keypad regularly, so as to adopt the convention that is understandable by the larger proportion of people. Up to now, I've been assuming that most use the keypad for movement (or, at least, have no problem visualizing it).
Personally I'm confused by arbitrary conventions, that is, ones that have no explanatory basis. The idea of naming squares 0-9 then A-F is as arbitrary as you can get. The only way of learning it is memorization. The system I'm proposing has a rational basis, which acts as a mnemonic aid (and that's a good thing).
Dominae
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dejon
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I guess I should've put more after the first line of my last post. I do understand what you're proposing, and the reasoning, and I can appreciate the value of a mnemonic aid.
I'm just trying to share my viewpoint as someone who isn't from the strategy forum (where I believe the numberpad for directions technique comes from), and who has got along fine in both the SPDG and PtWDG using directions as directions, and numbers for tiles.
I believe it was E_T that originated the tile numbering, and back when it was proposed in the SPDG, I offered the letter alternative when some people said that the numbers might get confusing when moving stacks of workers around (Move 2 workers to 2, 3 workers to 4, etc). We went ahead with the tile numbering anyways, and everything worked fine.
As I already know that system, and have memorized the tile numbers, it should be obvious that it is my preference. However, realizing that numbers as directions is already practically rooted in here, I simply offered a tile reference alternative that should be familiar enough to the SPDG folks, without risking confusion to the numberpad folks.
As for what is simplest, they are practically identical, one means looking down at your numberpad, the other - a post-it note on the side of your monitor with the tile numbering on it (until you memorize it).
Sure, I like my idea, as I'm sure that you like yours, because it is familiar. And I value your opinion as well, Dominae. I would never discount the expertise of the strategy forum members, and I don't think that the experience of those having dealt with this issue before in other Demo Games should be treated any differently.
In the end though, Dominae, you are the MoI, and will have to deal the most with the end result, so choose however you wish. I'm just trying to ensure you get more input than the brief discussion thus far. I've given mine, and I encourage everyone to chime in with what they are familiar with, and what convention seems easiest for them to learn, if they aren't already familiar.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
identical, one means looking down at your numberpad, the other - a post-it note on the side of your monitor with the tile numbering on it (until you memorize it).
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Let's save trees and use my system!
quote:
I would never discount the expertise of the strategy forum members, and I don't think that the experience of those having dealt with this issue before in other Demo Games should be treated any differently.
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I honestly thought most Civ players (at least, those who played Civ2) used the keypad for movement. I'm not sure why people think this is a Strat forum "thing"...it's not like it's proprietary or anything.
quote:
In the end though, Dominae, you are the MoI, and will have to deal the most with the end result, so choose however you wish. I'm just trying to ensure you get more input than the brief discussion thus far. I've given mine, and I encourage everyone to chime in with what they are familiar with, and what convention seems easiest for them to learn, if they aren't already familiar.
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Like I said, I would like to hear what others think, so that the fewest number of people have to change their old habits. If I'm in the minority, I'll change.
Dominae
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Dominae
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As far as I can tell, there are no problems with the queue I've posted. We're currently doing a little modification in order to get one extra Commerce, but that's all that needs to be changed.
Basically the idea was to get 4S out of Apolyton this turn, then 6 next turn, but we'll probably end up doing 6 and 4 instead. Apart from this, the only thing that could conceivably mess with the queue is Barbs...(and you're job is to prevent that from happening!).
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Panzer32
It doesn't require trees. It requires a knowledge of what "counting" and "clockwise" mean!  |
Similarly, the method I've proposed requires a knowledge of "keypad" and "counting".
In fact, the SPDG method requires further knowledge, namely 1) where to start counting, 2) where to continue counting once you've reached 8 (the location of 9 seems pretty arbitrary to me). I'm sure it requires some other knowledge I'm not thinking of.
The difference between the two systems is that one uses an pre-existing structure, the keypad, while the other is user-made, and, frankly, not as easy to remember (think about learning it for the first time, then think about learning my system).
Dominae
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dejon
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Similarly, the method I've proposed requires a knowledge of "keypad" and "counting".
In fact, the SPDG method requires further knowledge, namely 1) where to start counting, 2) where to continue counting once you've reached 8 (the location of 9 seems pretty arbitrary to me). I'm sure it requires some other knowledge I'm not thinking of.
The difference between the two systems is that one uses an pre-existing structure, the keypad, while the other is user-made, and, frankly, not as easy to remember (think about learning it for the first time, then think about learning my system).
Dominae |
You don't know where to start counting on a clock?
The clock is a user-made structure?
(just having fun now)
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Dominae
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And, just for the heck of it, let me elaborate on my last parenthetical statement. Imagine you're learning the two systems, and you come across a Laborer placement order:
SPDG system: 16
"Strat forum" system: 11
You'll probably ask yourself: "where the heck is the darn tile I'm supposed to put the Laborer on?" In either case you could just refer to a post-it note equally quickly. But let's say you want to memorize the numbers. Then, to figure out where 16 is, you would have to start 1, count your way around the circle, until your reach 16. That's a bunch of hops. Alternatively, you could just look at the keypad to find button 1, then mentally move the Laborer two spaces in that direction. That's 2 hops. So clearly you're saving time if you plan to learn my system.
Sure, if you've got the SPDG system already crammed into your brain, it's easier. But if you're waffling between the two, the "Strat forum" system is simpler. And it just happens to coincide with what we've been doing for unit movement.
Dominae
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24-04-2003 20:47
With this, numeric directions, and "sub-conventions", please don't expect me to have a clue what you're talking about. 
Very true, Panzer.
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