25-04-2003 22:48									#1
	Enemies. Does AI "Remember"? Suffering from ads?

If two AI civs go to war in the past, will the loser potentially try to get revenge in the future? Do they remember these things? or is it just that they just stay furious at each other and by default raising the chance of going to war in the future?

Same applies to how AI treats human players.

	25-04-2003 23:04									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Well the AI tells me it remembers my dastardly actions in the past.

I often get messages like, "No way will I sign right of passage with you Agathon, I remember what you did to the poor French, Germans, Americans, etc.

	25-04-2003 23:27									#3
	Support Apolyton

Actually, it's sometimes ridicilous. Sure, I mistreated Japan badly in my game, but I killed them way in BC with Swordsmen. Currently it's Industrial Age, and still noone signs RoP with me because they remember Japan...

	26-04-2003 00:29									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm... interesting. I'm asking because of something related.

I've been helping Japan in my game for a good 50+ turns when India declared war on it. To maintain the balance of power and slingshot into the lead, I used the war to help contain India. I invaded India itself and helped liberate Japanese cities, and gave it to the Japanese.

All the while I was giving substantial gold aid to them to help them maintain their forces.

50 turns after giving the last Japanese city to Japan, I can't say the AI Japanese civ remembers. It doesn't mention my deeds, nor is it reflected in its attitude. In fact, at one point, their attitude towards me waffled from polite to cautious.

I suppose this is more of a limitaiton of a lack of the AI's capacity to show gratitude as they never seem to offer me any gold or give me back my cities. Have any of you experienced AI doing anything good to you?

	26-04-2003 00:37									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The current "authority" on the subject is CFC's War Academy: AI Attitude Exposed.

	26-04-2003 01:13									#6
	Suffering from ads?

I'm aware of the attitude article. Thanks. But I'm just wondering if there are additional subroutines behind the AI to help it manage hostility and friendship. That doesn't appear to be the case. :/

	26-04-2003 03:19									#7
	Got spare money?

I have stopped paying attention to my reputation, because in the end, they are just barbarians anyway. It doesn't matter how much you humiliate yourself to flatter them, they will eventually stab your back. They will hate you for anything. Computers are stupid, human are smart.

	26-04-2003 03:33									#8
	Suffering from ads?

CFC is blocked from this computer, so I can't read that article But ... the AI seems to have a pretty long unforgiving memory if the advisor is any indication. My AI advisor will routinely, and throughout the entirety of the game, tell me something along the lines the Ottomans betrayed "our friends" the English when the English nation died on my sword some hundreds of years back, and the Ottomans and I have been dealing and trading peacefully for some years as well.

	26-04-2003 08:57									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Solver Actually, it's sometimes ridicilous. Sure, I mistreated Japan badly in my game, but I killed them way in BC with Swordsmen. Currently it's Industrial Age, and still noone signs RoP with me because they remember Japan...

should we tell him about the "Arrian Deception."

Answer to the first Q:

I'm not sure if the AI vs. AI is treated in the same way as Human vs. AI. That is to say when the AI performs ROP rape (damn those Persians) I don't think he gets the same penalty of not being able to sign an ROP with any other civ for the rest of the game.

quote: Originally posted by dexters But I'm just wondering if there are additional subroutines behind the AI to help it manage hostility and friendship.

There's also a thing called aggressiveness which is why Germany, Russia, etc. like to declare war more often than other AIs. There are probably other factors what we don't know about as well.

	26-04-2003 08:57									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes. The AI is silly like that.

	26-04-2003 21:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by dexters Have any of you experienced AI doing anything good to you?

Never - and nor has anyone else, I'll bet. The nicest thing this AI can do is not stab you in the back.

Once I turned off all victory conditions except Diplomatic, just to see if the AI had any capacity for making friends and influencing people, but if anything it was more aggressive than ever. Even India was going around starting fights everywhere, as if the way to win at the UN is to have no other voters.

We know that the AI's don't penalise each other for ROP-rape like they do with humans, and Arrian has suggested that it would cripple the AI if it did.

They do punish each other in the UN vote though. I played peacenik Pangea-Monarch diplowins with each of the original 16 civs, usually winning every neutral vote except those who attacked me recently, those who got firmly punished for attacking me in the past, and occasionaly those in an alliance with the UN rival.

My strategy was based on 'let them bash each others heads so they hate each other and they'll all vote for me". It worked.

	27-04-2003 01:04									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I managed to have the French onside for 500 years. I gave them a bit of gold and a worker (someone else's that I'd stolen) occasionally and helped them out with techs and helped them in a couple of wars. You are supposed to help your friends and if you do it enough you can have a useful ally.

You would have thought that Joan of Arc would have gladly performed degrading sex acts on me from the nice things she said every time I called the French (that baldy lesbian militarist look put me off though )

	27-04-2003 06:32									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Funny story, Agathon, as I've had a very similar experience under VERY different circumstances. I had been annoyed with (and apparently mutally so) the Germans for thousands of years in a game I was playing about a year ago. We were well into the Modern Age, when suddenly Germany asks me for a MPP and ROP agreement. Normally I'd refuse ANY such offer, but Germany was on the other side of the world and we were both the most powerful civs (out of about 6 remaining).

Well, I was getting bored, so I launched several ICBMs at India for no particular reason, and invaded with MA to clean up. The nuke launch, as I expected, got everyone pissed - EXCEPT GERMANY. They happily waited for the counterattacks to draw them into war and merrily joined me in blowing away every stitch of opposition on the continent (well, until I finished the spaceship) without complaint, betrayal, or protest.

I've never seen Bismarck so happy, friendly, and open. I guess it's true what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

	27-04-2003 11:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We know that the AI's don't penalise each other for ROP-rape like they do with humans, and Arrian has suggested that it would cripple the AI if it did.

I thought the AI don't know who the human player is? or is this a myth?

	28-04-2003 20:15									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by dexters Have any of you experienced AI doing anything good to you?

Not so much. But that might be due to the way I interact with the AI. It would have no reason to do me any favors.

But in its favor, an AI which is allied with me in a war, will definitely step up and take its share of the battle. And I have, on several occasions, had an AI give the APPEARANCE of vigorously defending the one of my cities (alone on another continent) wedged between it and the hostile civ. And it will do things like throw archers against tanks to give the APPEARANCE of distracting the hostile from focusing its fire power on my city. I have to say, this is an aspect of the AI that I am extremely pleased with.

Now, if I could only get it to stop bombarding an enemy city's improvements when I have the situation in hand and am about to take that city, and WANT those improvements.

	29-04-2003 18:17									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab I've never seen Bismarck so happy, friendly, and open. I guess it's true what they say about the enemy of my enemy...

I've never seen him be anything other than a b@stard. This is quite strange.

At least the characters in Civ II are fairly predictable. I still laugh about having to deal with Ghandi in Civ I. Occasionally, he would go berserk and start behaving like Hitler.

	29-04-2003 20:52									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The AI is a whiny little *****. Kill them.

Not one of them can be trusted not to backstab you. Even civs you ally with and even save from certain death will hate you if you're powerful.

Do not expect real friends & allies, it merely leads to frustration. The AI is coded to try and win, and it will act in what it sees as its best interests. If that means signing a peace treaty mid-way through an alliance with you because they can get gold & tech from the enemy, they will do it. And so on and so forth.

If you want to be left alone (the best you can hope for), give occasional gifts, try not to be sucking their treasury all the way dry (leave them a few gpt leeway so they don't have to attack you to get out of a deal that is bankrupting them), and do not allow the AI to see you as weak. Have an decent military, even if you have no plans to use it.

-Arrian

	29-04-2003 22:29									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think you had it right the first line: Kill them.

	29-04-2003 23:12									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by dexters I thought the AI don't know who the human player is? or is this a myth?

The AI doesn't distinguish between human and AI for a wide variety of actions (it appears), but it certainly behaves in some ways differently when dealing with another AI versus the human - whether due to "knowing" it is the human or applying different set algoritms based on difficulty, etc. is unknown. I can think, off the top of my head, of at least 2 instances where treatment is disparate: (1) the ROP issue, since the AI always seems to declare war by attacking without a declaration (unless the declaration is upon a refused demand); and (2) trade pricing (due to the AI-AI trade rate in the editor).

Catt

	30-04-2003 00:13									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Not one of them can be trusted not to backstab you. Even civs you ally with and even save from certain death will hate you if you're powerful.

Exactly. And that's the beauty of this game, isn't it? AI civs can't ever be trusted, but situations force you to ally with it on occasion any way. You get that same feeling Stalin had when he saw panzers come racing across his border.

	30-04-2003 01:19									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Catt I can think, off the top of my head, of at least 2 instances where treatment is disparate: (1) the ROP issue, since the AI always seems to declare war by attacking without a declaration (unless the declaration is upon a refused demand); and (2) trade pricing (due to the AI-AI trade rate in the editor). Catt

Juist to clarify on the ROP issue. You mean to say they declare war always by moving their units to attack you instead of formally nullifying the peace treaty so that a state of war exists?

My memory is a little hazy, but I do remember one game where my ally, the Aztecs declared war on me one turn before they attacked. But I'm not 100% sure of this.

	30-04-2003 04:00									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by dexters Just to clarify on the ROP issue. You mean to say they declare war always by moving their units to attack you instead of formally nullifying the peace treaty so that a state of war exists? My memory is a little hazy, but I do remember one game where my ally, the Aztecs declared war on me one turn before they attacked. But I'm not 100% sure of this.

Exactly -- if the state of war doesn't arise through the signing of a military alliance, the triggering of an MPP, or the formal declaration following a rejected tribute demand / remove your troops or declare demand, then the only way I've ever seen the AI initiate a war was by actually attacking (usually a city, sometimes a unit or grabbing a worker).

If the human doesn't first formally declare war but instead just launches an attack, it is treated as a form of ROP abuse -- doesn't seem to be as damaging as breaching an actual ROP (so many 20-turn deals are still possible), but severely hampers one's ability to secure an ROP with other civs - it is viewed as a human sneak attack. A simple declaration (without troops in enemy territory) followed immediately by an attack avoids this rep hit for the human.

It's pretty easy to see that the AIs have no problem entering into subsequent ROPs after such sneak attacks, and it appears to me (though this is very difficult to verify even with the debug mode since we can't actually see hard assets being traded for 20-turn assets) that the AIs are able to enter into 20-turn deals even after breaching numerous previous deals. All this doesn't particularly bother me - I think the game works fairly well (including the implementation of reputation) in spite of this disparate treatment.

Back on your original topic (since I don't think I ever addressed it ), I have no idea if the AI "remembers" its enemies and alters its future behavior because of this memory. But I do know that each civ (including the human's) "remembers" prior enemies and may classify some as "traditional enemies" -- such traditional enemies apparently enhance the happiness effects your people experience with a new war involving the enemy and/or slow the accumulation of war weariness relating to such wars. Whether the "traditional enemy" effect also alters AI decision making . . . ???

Catt

	30-04-2003 04:05									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks Catt for the clarificaiton. If I may stray a little bit from the discussion (this is my thread afterall) :P

In PTW debug, is there anyway for me to watch the AI play without me actually being present in the game?

Also do you take a rep his if you Move a 1 movement unit into enemy territory. Have the AI ask you to leave or declare war and you choose war.

As opposed two, moving two/three movement units like knights and tanks where you can move into their territory and attack the same turn.

	30-04-2003 04:22									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by dexters In PTW debug, is there anyway for me to watch the AI play without me actually being present in the game?

Not that I know of. I have used the one-tile island solution that you mentioned elsewhere; combine that with a beer or other preferred beverage on the spacebar, and you've got an interesting test game .

quote: Also do you take a rep his if you Move a 1 movement unit into enemy territory. Have the AI ask you to leave or declare war and you choose war.

Haven't tested in a while, but my answer is "yes." Anytime you declare war, for whatever reason, with any of your units in enemy territory, you take a hit akin to what I would call a "sneak attack." This is true even if you're pulled into the war through an MPP. On the other hand, this "sneak attack" rep hit seems less severe than a true ROP rape situation -- with a "sneak attack" it still seems that you can enter into a lot of "reputation-sensitive" deals (i.e., buying a tech for gpt) but will have trouble entering into an ROP. By contrast, declaring war with an active ROP in place will more severely tarnish your rep, as now you have committed both a "sneak attack" and breached an active deal.

Again, haven't tested in a while, but those are my $0.02.

quote: As opposed to, moving two/three movement units like knights and tanks where you can move into their territory and attack the same turn.

Unless I have abandoned my reputation, I almost always declare first and then attack in this manner, either with fast-movers to reach a target or with slow movers moving into position after a declaration.

Catt

	30-04-2003 07:11									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Thanks for the response Catt.

On a related note, does the AI consider declaring war while a luxury, or gpt trade is on-going as a reputation blackening event?

	30-04-2003 08:14									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal But in its favor, an AI which is allied with me in a war, will definitely step up and take its share of the battle. And I have, on several occasions, had an AI give the APPEARANCE of vigorously defending the one of my cities (alone on another continent) wedged between it and the hostile civ. And it will do things like throw archers against tanks to give the APPEARANCE of distracting the hostile from focusing its fire power on my city. I have to say, this is an aspect of the AI that I am extremely pleased with. Now, if I could only get it to stop bombarding an enemy city's improvements when I have the situation in hand and am about to take that city, and WANT those improvements.

The AI certainly does take its share of the battle. I try to arrange for them to take more than their share whenever circumstances permit. (As if the purpose of an alliance is to weaken both your enemy and ally whilst strengthening your own civ.)

As for the APPEARANCE of vigorously defending a human city. I find that if you are between your ally and your enemy then your ally may send a constant stream of units across your territory, with or without a ROP, which will fight any enemy units encountered in your territory. This can sometimes actually be used as a (but not entirely reliable) supplement to your own defences.

If I were the AI I also would bombard the hell out of any city you were about to take. If I happen to have say warships nearby you can be certain I will hit any city about to fall to my AI ally with every bombard I have in range.

	30-04-2003 08:16									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by dexters Thanks for the response Catt. On a related note, does the AI consider declaring war while a luxury, or gpt trade is on-going as a reputation blackening event?

Yes.

If you enter a 20 turn deal and then declare war you will not be able to get any more per turn deals with anyone.

	01-05-2003 01:30									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The AI has done the most random things to me. I was kicking German @rse when the persians, who had helped me through the who game and were fighting with me flipped for no reason. The AI never seems to notice when I do good things. Maybe the next patch will fix this...