29-04-2003 00:41									#31
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Had a chat with FortyJ, Cheiftess, and Croxis today in channel #isdg. Made progress towards friendly relations but no trade was possible. We offered Alphabet and they reluctantly offered 20g for it, but made it clear that they had to first pass it by their Trade Minister and that there wasn't a Trade Minister yet because they were in the middle of elections...

anyhow, no deals made. A more detailed post will be done in the CFC thread. Feel free to send it on.

--Togas

	29-04-2003 03:05									#32
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quote: anyhow, no deals made. A more detailed post will be done in the CFC thread. Feel free to send it on.

I'd say push for a Non-aggression pact before any trade deals. I think given the layout of the land and past relations with CDG, it is very likely we will want to be as friendly as possible with CFC. Heck, it may even be worth selling them the alphabet for 20 gold if it seems like it'd be an effective means of buttering them up for future alliances should the need arise.

Afterall, CDG going for that choke point is as much a threat to them as it is to us.

quote: I'd be surprised if they WEREN'T already sending a settler to take ahold of that chokepoint. They went to great efforts to keep us from settling in that area.

I 100% agree, there is very little chance they aren't planning to plop a city down there as soon as is possible for them to do it. If our Non-aggession pact (which is very soon to expire anyways) doesn't say we can't block their path, then we should go out of our way to do so. Although, it will probally result in a war when we do.

	29-04-2003 03:11									#33
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If we get a Warrior through, then it's irrelevant if they get a city there or not. IMO, of course.

I don't think we should think about any alliances with CFC. They're too far away to be of any help until at least the Middle Ages, and it wouldn't benfit us in any way. Buttering them up as friends is fine, but whether we're bitter enemies or the best of friends doesn't matter for quite some time (aside from trade, which, unfortunately, they aren't very technologically advanced compared with us).

	29-04-2003 04:28									#34
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20 gold for Alphabet, heck no! It'd be better to secure a future tech trade arrangement; 20 gold isn't spit for the value of that tech.

	29-04-2003 05:37									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Trip If we get a Warrior through, then it's irrelevant if they get a city there or not. IMO, of course.

Exploring the lands beyond the isthmus is important, to be sure. But actually controlling the isthmus may end up being far more important. If we place two units on the two Mountain tiles (effectively blocking the chokepoint), no Settlers get through, and therefore we "control" that area far before we ever settle there (unless CFC comes in from the other side).


Dominae

	29-04-2003 06:03									#36
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From what CFC has told us, they appear to be rather far away from the isthmus. I don't see much value in it for that reason. Sure it'll be a useful naval base eventually (to transfer forces between the north and south seas), but right now the teams are too far away from each other for it to be too significant, i.e. it's not like CFC is going to be able to support us any more if we hold the isthmus after allying with CFC and CDG attacks us.

	29-04-2003 06:17									#37
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"Too far away" now will not be the case come the Medieval age. Chokepoints are very very important in Civ3. If we can decide who has access (on foot) to our heartland, we'll have much stronger defense.

I really want to know if the landmasses also connect to the South. If that isthmus is the only way to reach CFC, I'll be beside myself if the MoW keeps downplaying its importace (just a warning!).


Dominae

	29-04-2003 06:26									#38
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And "too hard to destroy" may not be the case in that same Medieval Age.

I believe CFC mentioned that they thought that there was only a large sea between us, and not an ocean (i.e. the landmass might be connected to the south), and then the person who said it quickly noted that it was a mistake in saying that.

So who knows. They don't have contact with GCA (yet), so we don't have much to worry about that right now. If the CDG Warrior moves, then we won't have a tough time controlling the pass temporarily since I'm sending some forces that way once our 2nd NM is completed, but holding it long-term is probably up to the MOI to take care of...

	29-04-2003 06:31									#39
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quote: 20 gold for Alphabet, heck no! It'd be better to secure a future tech trade arrangement; 20 gold isn't spit for the value of that tech.

For what its worth, I agree with you even though i'm the one you're saying heck no! to My point was just that it _might_ be worth giving them a few bones (20 gold for a valuable tech is obviously too much-they'd probally just think we're morons) just to earn their good will. I personally think though that a) we should pursue peaceful relations with them starting with a nap asap and b) deal with them in a completely fair manner which will build their long term trust. If that means taking a few beaker loss in a tech deal, then oh well. At the same time, we shouldn't give them the impression that we are kissing their rears either (which trading a valuable tech for pennies would do).

quote: I don't think we should think about any alliances with CFC. They're too far away to be of any help until at least the Middle Ages, and it wouldn't benfit us in any way.

/Conspiracy Just when are planning to to go attacking our neihbors anyways mister MoW..... /End Conspiracy. Seriously though, I think we should plan ahead and try to manipulate the strategic balance an age ahead when we can. Sure, they will be useless to us in any war which breaks out soon, but I'm willing to bet (before seeing their land, if they got a crappy start then who knows), that they will be a decent power in the long term. I don't think we will be able to get along with CDG in the long term, they are too close. There is a very good chance GCA will side with CDG in a Apolyton/CDG war. We could use the leverage an ally (especialyl if they happen to share a southern border with GCA) would give us to avoid that.

	29-04-2003 06:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon /Conspiracy Just when are planning to to go attacking our neihbors anyways mister MoW..... /End Conspiracy. Seriously though, I think we should plan ahead and try to manipulate the strategic balance an age ahead when we can. Sure, they will be useless to us in any war which breaks out soon, but I'm willing to bet (before seeing their land, if they got a crappy start then who knows), that they will be a decent power in the long term. I don't think we will be able to get along with CDG in the long term, they are too close. There is a very good chance GCA will side with CDG in a Apolyton/CDG war. We could use the leverage an ally (especialyl if they happen to share a southern border with GCA) would give us to avoid that.

For the most part, far-away allies are next to worthless for the first half of the game. While having friends is good, it would benefit us much more to get GCA on our side than CFC, even if it costs us a war with CFC (just hypothetically speaking here ).

We shouldn't worry about CFC much besides as a trade partner. Every team is out for themselves, and I fail to see the motivation in CFC racing to our aid if we were attacked.

	29-04-2003 07:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Trip For the most part, far-away allies are next to worthless for the first half of the game.

Actually, they make pretty good tech trading partners, helping each other out in their respective local struggles.


Dominae

	29-04-2003 07:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Actually, they make pretty good tech trading partners, helping each other out in their respective local struggles.

Well, that's a good point. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't rely upon them for any support beyond trade and a friendly smile.

	29-04-2003 16:07									#43
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quote: For the most part, far-away allies are next to worthless for the first half of the game. While having friends is good, it would benefit us much more to get GCA on our side than CFC, even if it costs us a war with CFC (just hypothetically speaking here ).

The only part of that I agree with is that being friends with GCA is more important. But failing that, being friends with CFC is a good insurance policy. All I'm saying is that since we know CFC is south-west from CDG, then we know there is a decent chance that they either border GCA directly, or are just across a narrow strip of water from them. In the event that CDG attacks us, and GCA is inclined to side with them, then it'd be really nice if we had a mutual protection pact type of deal with a civ which is close enough to GCA to cause them problems....and thus give them pause before jumping in. As far as their worth as allies with against CDG directly, probally nil since we wouldn't want them to capture and keep any of CDG's land and as you pointed out they are too far away to do much to them. Oh and just in case I'm not clear, I'm not saying I want a pact with them to attack GCA Any such defensive pact with them, shouldn't name any civs by name, and honestly, I'd like to see us eventually have a similar agreement with GCA (possibly first).