27-04-2003 11:17									#1
	AI military strategy Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Has anyone seen a co-ordinated planet attack from the AI? In all of my previous games (challenging diff. & lower), the AI seems to focus on hit'nrun tactics and taking out targets of opportunity. I haven't seen any determined effort to take any of my planets. AI usually has 'clouds' of single ships floating around: as they pass by my planets, they'll (attempt to) take out my defensive ships and then move on. Eventually, a transport may show up to grab the planet if I haven't reinforced the planet since the last attack. The AI does go after starbases and trade ships at the start of hostilities, which is good strategy.

I figured that at the higher difficulties, I would start seeing better battle tactics, but in the game I'm just finishing, with all AI set to intelligent, I still haven't seen a mass attack on any of my planets. I'm in the middle of a major war with the Yor; he's #2 in the game & has about the same number of planets as I do, has an impressive economy and is leading (slightly) in the tech race. Most of the game, the Yor and the Terrans have been eyeing each other warily, but no conflicts since we're both evil races. We both had lots of Dreads and we were both just starting to produce Rangers when war finally broke out. I'm basically handing it to him, though, because I focus on taking his planets and I tend to have large fleets of ships + transports, whereas the Yor just kind of pounds on a planet and then moves off to another one without bothering to invade the planet. I have noticed that at this difficulty level, I see some smallish attack fleets of 2 or 3 ships, so that's an improvement.

I'm just curious if this aspect of the game improves with higher difficulty. I believe that after 'intelligent', the AI doesn't get craftier, they just gets econ bonuses and things of that nature.

	27-04-2003 12:42									#2
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I've only played as high as normal, but the computer does seem to have some problems with organizing a real attack with transports.

I occasionally see them, but only if the planet I control is smack dab in their territory, and even then they don't coordinate very well.

On the AI front the latest patch is supposed to have one of the enemy civs playing very well with less cheating. I forget which but I think it was the Arceans.

	28-04-2003 02:56									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Moreover, the AI NEVER attacked me so far - never declared war on me - and my last game was on huge map-challenging and I'm actually playing an advanced game on huge-tough ( my fourth full game ). Perhaps my gameplay style is matching perfectly the GalCiv's intended strategy engine against the AI ( vassalizing economically the AI with constant trade as well as building a strong military ), but still I don't find the AI to be a militaristic challenge so far. Though I prefer the excellent game balance over MoO3, and by far, it's still strange to see more war declarations in the latter. Also it's too easy to make peace in the same turn you started the war, thus avoiding unexpected wars with your enemy's ally(ies). Pretty much like the Alpha Centauri higher diff levels....

	28-04-2003 18:30									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been crushed by the AI in battle. As far as coordinating a transport attack, I haven't had a three or four planet simultaneous attack but I've had a domino one after another style attack in one game. I may even have a save if anyone's interested.

	28-04-2003 19:48									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

On sub-normal difficulty I have also seen the AI take my planets domino style. However I haven't seen multipronged attacks and do see a lot of hit and run tactics by the AI.

I've learned now not to take the loss of a system so hard as the AI doesn't seem to always follow up it's attack with further attacks into my territory. If I can build up my defenses in a few bordering sectors I can contain the AI while amassing the ships needed to counterattack.

	28-04-2003 22:01									#6
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I finished my game, finally. I was playing with the latest upgrade, 1.03.54 or something like that. I did start the game with 1.03 and then had to upgrade to the .54 version as there were some nasty economy issues that I was seeing. So, that might have caused some gameplay issues.
The Yor never did present much of a military threat; I eventually knocked them back into minor civ status, although it took quite some time. They did defend their planets pretty well with a mix of Battle Hammers and Dreads; that was good. But I tend to bring in attack fleets of 20+ ships, including Combat Transports, so it's difficult to defend against that. But one result is that I can't maintain much momentum as I end up with alot of wounded ships and not many Transports left after taking one or two planets. This is excellent!
I watched as the Drengin and the Yor fought it out with each other, later in the game. I saw the same thing with both of them: they would knock out the some planets defenses and then leave the planets unconquered. There were a number of skirmishes between them and not once did I see a planet change hands. Weird.
So, apparently, even at 'painful' difficulty, the game is still primarily an economic one: expand quickly and build up your infrastructure and you're set. The AI is very good at this, too, but if you're even close to them mid-game, the advantage should be yours. However, if I don't get a good start, I'm toast. I won't consider myself a good player until I can win, at least occasionally, from a mediocre (or even poor) start. At 'painful', I think this will be very hard, and that's good.
I think that the AI is very good in this game; I love that the AI is pretty rational. I'll play some more and maybe I'll see a planet blitzkrieg from the AI... here's hoping

	28-04-2003 22:33									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Personally it seems to me like cultural takeovers are easier than military. All it requires is a bunch of starbases and some pretty decent star systems.

However, I think that's been nerfed lately, because my last game only had a couple planets converting every once in a while. Once in 1.02 I completely wiped out the Drengin using culture. That kind of thing hasn't happened lately.

	29-04-2003 00:41									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I got the game a little while ago, and finally got the chance to install it Friday. Haven't slept much since.

I played normal first with random attributes, and am now playing with all AI at intelligent, and still random. Both games got the Drengin as evil SOBs, but they do the hordes of individual ships.

I took a bit different approach, and built lots of survey ships, then worried about expansion. Lots of those one percent of this, one percent of that, so that even though I'm almost but not quite at tech parity with the Drengin (they lead in the game overall, at least for now), I'm able to shred their ships badly. They got scouts and a couple of freighters, and a wormholed survey ship, but haven't been able to take out a single combat ship yet, although I've got about 30 of theirs. That hasn't made them modify their attack strategy, although they don't seem to come out and play much anymore - I'm having to hunt in their territory.

I also notice they fail to stack warships together with troop ships, but overall, the AI is still much better than most TBS games I've played.

	29-04-2003 03:00									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I just got gang-banged on an all "bright" level. Torians, Yor, Drengin, all declared war on me and wiped me out before I had even discovered frigates. My 50% "luck" kicked in when I was down to one planet, and I discovered a Ranger. Of course, everyone else was playing with Dreadnaughts, so I didn't feel particularly lucky.

	29-04-2003 06:08									#10
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The start is very important, oh yes, and it seems GalCiv can provide a decent challenge even on lower diff levels if you have a bad start, and strangely have an easy ride on higher diff levels with a good start. The "common/uncommon" planets setting when you set your picks may be minor at first glance , but reveals to be crucial depending of your gameplay style. It seems to be quite harder to play with abundant "good" planets on huge maps against bright/intelligent than playing with uncommon on tiny maps against geniuses. I prefer playing "occasionnal " on huge maps and upgrading ( still upgrading...) the diff level 'til I meet the AI that should liquefy me....

I have noticed also that when a weak "major" civ surrenders to you ( you know around 2200 when you have the little cute message "" we can no longer sustain ourselves in this hostile galaxy and have decided to surrender ourselves to the Terran Alliance "", well that can come with a side effect on the trade revenue if the loser was still a decent economic partner and not much potent trade rivals remain in the later stages of the game. Since many of the GalCiv strategies a player must use in order to succeed rely upon the economy/maintenance engine and diplomacy, well a certain number of rivals must survive until the end if the victory goal is other than military: because the lack of trade and deals/per month is SO KILLING in the later stages when having to pay such a high maintenance that if you do not restrain yourself to vassalize the AI instead of eradicating, then you'll have to make the tedious clicking moves to disband a lot of military units and some social imps. So on huge maps I prefer eradicating the weakest minor civs, I vassalize the rest ( conquering an average of 2-4 star systems per major civ ) but never to the point to weaken them. Strong trade partners is the key to success, unless playing the warmonger on smaller maps.

	29-04-2003 07:38									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's one the Altarians pulled on me. They were allied with the Torians and declared war on me when I went to war with the Torians.

However, they were puny militarily, and I knew they were just respecting their alliance. I immediately phoned them up and offered "peace for peace" and you could almost hear their sighs of relief when they gladly accepted without a shot being fired. They knew they were no match for my dreadnoughts, and they were right next to me!

So anyway, I start my campaign against the Torians. About 3-4 turns later, the Altarians suddenly launch a surprise attack against one of my lightly defended colonies, taking out its lone defender and sending in two transports in the same turn. Those sneaky bastards!

Because of my tech advantage, the transports failed to capture the planet but I have to admit that it got my adrenaline pumping. I sent a frigate back over to clean up the mess and kept a close eye on them for quite a while.

Eventually, their planets started defecting to me and it was no longer an issue.

	29-04-2003 08:09									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Ray K,

Ooh, excellent...
So what difficulty level were you playing at?

	29-04-2003 08:23									#13
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win or lose, I always play on "Intelligent"

I like the idea of matching wits with an AI on an even playing game (rule-wise), and it's nice to get a challenge now.

I do see the AI occasionally doing things that I think could be done better, so I gripe to StarDock about it -- because I know they are listening. But, TRUST ME, the AI problems I do notice are absolutely miniscule to ones I've seen in other games.

There are two steps in making a good AI:

1. Don't do stupid things!
2. Do smart things.

If a designer can completely pull off #1, he's already written the smartest AI in the industry. Doing #2 requires playtime and consultation from advanced players. It's impossible to do at release.

	08-05-2003 16:25									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have played a number of games at the genius level. Generally on large maps, but a couple of mediums also. I have restarted bad positions, but basically once I get diplomatic translators and rush a couple other trade goods I find the game pretty easy.

The AI isn't hopeless stupid but it still has a lot of work to do to compare to say the AI in Civ3. The trading and declaration of war all make seems very reasonable. (even with +80 diplomatic advantage I end up selling techs pretty cheap.). The strategic AI is surprisingly good at grapping resource and planets.

However the operational AI is horrible and the tactical AI isn't much better. I have yet to see any type of offensive action by the computer. The offensive seems to be limited to picking off random ships and killing trade ships. On very very rare ocassions I have seen the AI invade a planet but with only 1 or 2 transports.

I can understand that developing operational AI is tough but really massing onces force is essential for making a good attack, at genius level.... I'd expect more.

More baffling to me is the tactical AI. I have better dreadnaught and some excellent defensive (ATK starhawk than the Altarians yet the continually attack my ships in a serious of one shot attacks.
The AI shouldn't attack unless it has better than 60% chance of winning or there is a follow up ship also in a position to attack.

It seems really silly for the AI to leave the defensive position in orbit to attack my ships in the same sector when they only have a 25% of winning...

Last edited by Strollen on 08-05-2003 at 16:31

	08-05-2003 18:05									#15
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I've been playing with all AIs on 'Genius' on a range of map sizes. Really the thing to remember about GalCiv is that 'war' is being waged first on economic, research and production grounds. But if you've manged to win those wars, it's almost certain you'll win the military wars as long as you don't take on too many enemies at once or get really unlucky.

So, yes, the military AI needs some work in GalCiv. No doubt. In fact, for the longevity of the game to extend into the months and years it rightly deserves, I'd take AI updates long before I'd want more graphics, etc.

Still, GalCiv makes those 'other wars' a real pleasure to play. Now if the military savvy of the AI gets beefed up. WOW!

	09-05-2003 22:46									#16
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I agree with yin. I play most of the time incredible (usually losing) and genius (usually winning) ai's, and they don't often make coordinated assaults. They do recognize targets, like starbases when they can see them, which need being taken out. They will use their fleet effectively, but the ai doesn't use its transports in an intelligetn manner. They don't invade. I once gave a loaded combat transport to an ai just next to an unguarded enemy planet, and the ai just moved the transport to its own base instead of invading...
On smaller maps, with less decisions to take, the ai seems to be better able to focus. Gigantic maps are mostly a joke, as the ai will send troops years after you rebuilt a ship to destroy them all (on genius).
The ai also needs to defend its worlds better. They tend to move their ships out of the planet and let them there when they'd be better of defending in orbit. Also, they should upgrade and stop building colony ships, transports and freighters in industrial quantities. They should also sometimes stack a ship over a starbase to help protect it.
Overall, despite all these weaknesses, the ai is quite good, because it manages well on econ, tech and diplomatic sides. Just tell it not to attack scouts with AMMs and all will be fine.

	10-05-2003 02:36									#17
	Got spare money?

My 1.03A lunch game had the Arceans (set to intelligent) bringing in stacks of one transport escorted by 5-8 frigates, which is nothing to sneeze at this early in the game. The Yor, however, also intelligent, were piece-mealing their attacks similar to what you're describing.

	10-05-2003 11:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think the different ai's are coded so that some race may behave more cleverly than the others with regards to military action.

	10-05-2003 21:23									#19
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The AI is a bit tougher since the recent updates, so there's hope for some military challenge in the months to come - I'm not an expert player like many of you, I can't win at crippling - and now I find my challenge at tough the same way it was at painful before 1.03. Reminds me Civ 3 in a way.....with less AI cheats. They're gradually upgrading the AI and I like the updates process so far, aside the load crash bug found in 1.03A.057.

	11-05-2003 01:26									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The recent patches definitely seem to have helped with some of the tactical movement and attacks, although much more is needed in that department. It sounds like those sort of changes are in 1.04, "All AI players more intelligent in tactical combat" according to the notes so far. Once it's out of beta and we can all play it, I imagine it will make the combat side a good bit tougher.