29-04-2003 18:17									#31
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Anyway, since it is formed, we can leave the job to the Arabs

	29-04-2003 18:33									#32
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Actually the alliance backstepped on this one since it will not help union in Europe.

Things now are: Europe enjoys free defence from US which does all the paying, gets killed etc.

Meanwhile Europe has higher standard of living, less violence, universal health care etc etc.

A master- slave relationship with the US serving Europe and taking all the cost and all the slack. Of course it helps its US economy but not its people.
This will not change for the foreasble future.

	29-04-2003 18:34									#33
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I think it's pretty smart myself

	29-04-2003 20:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 About the Kings, yes unfortunately. now they're gone too. but do you have democracy now? even without kings? (or health care for that matter and peaceful life)

Democracy smarcracy, we're a federalist Republic, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Health Care? The Government completely covers my health care.

quote: The Euro was deemed impossible but yet happened and it is stronger than the dollar now.

Meh, stuff is still cheaper here in the states.

	29-04-2003 20:56									#35
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The word "Kimono" comes from the Greek work "chimona", which means "winter".
What do you put on when it's cold? A robe!. So there you, Chimono-Robe-winter-Kimono.

	29-04-2003 20:58									#36
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And Greeks invented POTTERY!

	29-04-2003 21:37									#37
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I think it's pretty smart myself

In a way it is smart because it maintains world peace. History has shown that military alliances, opposed to each other, more often than not, go to war. The only one that did not - at least overtly - was the Nato -- Warsaw Pact statndoff. However, the cold war was ugly for the world outside Europe, as we all know.

I was just thinking, is there any military alliance anywhere in the world, today, that is independent of the US?

	29-04-2003 21:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis are you threathened by it ?

Not really. I'm just curious how you can form a credible defense policy without British involvement.

	29-04-2003 21:48									#39
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quote: "The Bush administration has reacted angrily to suggestions that General Tommy Franks, the commander of the US-led war in Iraq, might be charged with war crimes. A Belgian lawyer says he is preparing a case that could see General Franks charged under a law which allows the prosecution of non-Belgian citizens for war crimes. .. "If this prosecution goes ahead, Bush administration officials are making it plain they will regard it as a major diplomatic incident - an example of political harassment."

And Euros wonder why the US doesn't support the ICC.

	29-04-2003 21:51									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not really. I'm just curious how you can form a credible defense policy without British involvement.

Now I'm curious what the Britons have to do with the defense of France and Germany. The Germans alone have an army twice as big as the British, and they are eqipped with enough heavy weapons, tanks and mech infantry for a formidable defense. And although they may be not able to project this power (which is true without any doubt), this ability is completely irrelevant for defensive purposes.

	29-04-2003 21:52									#41
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He's been in Iraq for five minutes. What are going to be charged for? There's always a lawyer out there preparing a case for the most absurd things between heaven and the earth. doesn't mean that it has a chance in hell in a court room.

	29-04-2003 21:53									#42
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Why should the US even care? Lets pull all our troops out of bases around the world. Let Europe deal with their problems.

	29-04-2003 21:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Why should the US even care? Lets pull all our troops out of bases around the world. Let Europe deal with their problems.

	29-04-2003 21:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Now I'm curious what the Britons have to do with the defense of France and Germany.

That's not the topic of the summit. Nor is it the reason that Italy, Spain, and the Netherlands also expressed concern about the summit.

	29-04-2003 22:01									#45
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quote: doesn't mean that it has a chance in hell in a court room.

They convicted Sharon, didn't they? You don't really need a case to convict someone of human rights violations in Belgium.

	29-04-2003 22:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art Because one of the EU's largest millitary powers has no independance from the US?? If America says "Lets'have a war", do the Brits ever say no? How could Europe be a counter-balance to the US if they never stand up to its bullying? -Jam

On the other hand, why have an army when you're never going to use it just to spite the Americans ?

And please no independance from the US? we've been in twice as many fights and do alot more peacekeeping work in the world then them. They just grab the headlines because they're the major player when they do join in.

	29-04-2003 22:08									#47
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What planet do you live on? Has Sharon been convicted?!

	29-04-2003 22:11									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saras The word "Kimono" comes from the Greek work "chimona", which means "winter". What do you put on when it's cold? A robe!. So there you, Chimono-Robe-winter-Kimono.

Yeah, I saw that movie too.

slightly back on topic, I don't think we should vacate our military bases overseas unless the local governments make a formal request to leave. With already closed down a lot of bases overseas as it is.

	29-04-2003 22:13									#49
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quote: What planet do you live on? Has Sharon been convicted?!

I know he can't go to Belgium for fear of arrest. If he hasn't been convicted of anything, that would just make the situation even more absurd. Should Tommy Franks or any other American general have to tailor their travel plans to avoid whatever European countries have a warrant out for their arrest on ludicrous war crimes charges?

The US might have signed on to the ICC if you Euros would treat war crimes as the rare and serious things they are, instead of as an excuse to score political points.

	29-04-2003 22:15									#50
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Last I heard the Sharon trial fell through, despite the fact they had quite a case.

	29-04-2003 22:17									#51
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Of course they did.

	29-04-2003 22:20									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The US might have signed on to the ICC if you Euros would treat war crimes as the rare and serious things they are, instead of as an excuse to score political points.

"You euros"? Are talking about me? Get you grip together, I just agreed that the idea to convict Franks for war crimes seems absurd a few posts ago. I have no desire for the ICC to score political points. I'm not the one 'inventing' convictions to score political points.

	29-04-2003 22:38									#53
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The problem with the Belgian system is that pretty much anybody can fill a case, even if this case will be ruled out by the court eventually.
I seem to remember there was a case against Pinochet. I wonder if there are cases about the dictators of the world, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm almost sure many political dissidents in exile in Belgium try to make a case against their oppressors.

The only cases that we hear about are those against persona grata in the west. It doesn't necessarily mean all cases are against them.

	29-04-2003 22:40									#54
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Damn you Drake! How the hell did you get Sharon from this thread without any stops in between?

	29-04-2003 22:43									#55
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Spiffor: Actually I think there's something about a former dictator of Chad also being prosecuted. I think I read that about the same time as the belgian court decided that Sharon could be prosecuted without being present in the country himself. This would also apply for the Chad dictator. For obvious reasons that didn't get any real attention. It's not just americans that have problems finding Chad on a world map...

	29-04-2003 23:14									#56
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If the ICC indicts Franks, I think the first thing he ought to do is fly to Netherlands for dinner.

Then let's see if the brave Dutch want to arrest Franks.

	29-04-2003 23:20									#57
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AFAIK, the ICC cannot indict Franks. The US are not part of the ICC, so it cannot condemn any of its citizens I think.

The case we are talking about is pure Belgian, and not international in any form.

	29-04-2003 23:23									#58
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Then he should have dinner in Belgium.

	29-04-2003 23:28									#59
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I highly doubt the Belgian justice will give following to the case anyway.

	29-04-2003 23:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The problem with the Belgian system is that pretty much anybody can fill a case, even if this case will be ruled out by the court eventually. I seem to remember there was a case against Pinochet. I wonder if there are cases about the dictators of the world, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm almost sure many political dissidents in exile in Belgium try to make a case against their oppressors. The only cases that we hear about are those against persona grata in the west. It doesn't necessarily mean all cases are against them.

There are numerous cases, but you don't know about those, only Sharon cases or Tommy Franks cases get the media..