29-04-2003 19:07									#1
	Question about techs. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I recently played a game as the Americans in which I decided to go for an economic strategy. In other words I attempted to make as much money as I could and buy all my techs.

I managed to do a good job of this, even though I got beat to the GL and I stil had lots of money for rushes and bribes left over.

The problem is that part of my strategy was to do this for the first half of the game and then go back to a normal research strategy once I had built up a huge economy. But when I decided to switch science back up to 70% it didn't make a difference. I was still taking 40 turns to discover things and putting the slider to 90% didn't make much difference.

So does the game keep track of how many techs you have discovered yourself and does this add to the speed at which you discover later techs?

	29-04-2003 19:27									#2
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In your later game, did you have libraries/universities built in your cities? This makes a BIG difference in your research time, along with having cities with large population sizes.

I don't believe the game keeps track of how many techs you actually researched and how many techs you bought in the past...

	29-04-2003 19:33									#3
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I had wonderful cities with both libraries and universities (and stacks of other stuff). It still didn't make a difference. I wonder if it's a bug in the Mac version or if I'm just insane.

	29-04-2003 22:30									#4
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The game doesn't track how many techs you buy vs. research and use that to compute tech research times.

It's really strange however that with a well-developed empire with libraries and universities in place that any new tech should take 40 turns. Although not a favorite tactic of mine, I have used the "set research to 0%; buy techs until after Edcuation; with universities in place turn on research" on many games and never experienced a similar problem.



Catt

	29-04-2003 23:08									#5
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Weird... I guess I'm just cursed.

	29-04-2003 23:52									#6
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i've expierence that too, for some reason. going from 0 to 70% science, and still having like 20+ turns for an advance (even with libaries / unis).

it usually levels off in a few turns though.

	30-04-2003 00:30									#7
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Oh, giving up in disgust and swearing at the computer doesn't work then?

	30-04-2003 01:41									#8
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Post a save

	30-04-2003 03:40									#9
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how bizarre. that strategy is normally foolproof, sounds like a bug to me.

once you have the research infrastructure in place, you should be getting new techs every 4 - 6 turns.

	30-04-2003 06:39									#10
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I don't have the save any more, sorry. I deleted Civ 3 a while back to save space and reinstalled it only today (to start a Pangaea game)

I'm going to start another game with the same strategy when I have time and see what happens this time. Uberkrux is probably right.

	30-04-2003 06:41									#11
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This all seems vaguely familiar to me...

I believe that when you set your research rate from 0% to 70%, there might be a built-in delay factor to relicate your civilization turning from doing no research at all to a 70% output for research...but I'm not positive. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that in a couple of my past games, it actually took 3-4 turns before my civilization was cranking out a fair research rate after starting from 0%. Sure, when I first set the slider from 0% to 70-80%, my research times are around the mid 30's...but after a few turns of leaving it there, my research times automatically moved down to under 10 turns to complete the technology research in question.

	30-04-2003 06:48									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich This all seems vaguely familiar to me... I believe that when you set your research rate from 0% to 70%, there might be a built-in delay factor to relicate your civilization turning from doing no research at all to a 70% output for research...but I'm not positive. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that in a couple of my past games, it actually took 3-4 turns before my civilization was cranking out a fair research rate after starting from 0%. Sure, when I first set the slider from 0% to 70-80%, my research times are around the mid 30's...but after a few turns of leaving it there, my research times automatically moved down to under 10 turns to complete the technology research in question.

That might well be the answer. It looks like Agathon was punished for his impatience.

	30-04-2003 06:59									#13
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Yes, patience is a virtue - even in (or maybe especially in) a Civ3PTW game!

	30-04-2003 11:39									#14
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Rage can also be a virtue in Civ.

	30-04-2003 13:35									#15
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I've never had a problem with having a few turns adjustment to science and I don't think that there's a warm up period for research either. What I do know though is that when somebody else gets the tech your researching the amount of beakers needed go down and therefor the research time. This could explain why your research time goes down after a while Wittlich.

The only thing I can figure that wrong with the 20+ research time is either a bug or that your empire is to small. With to few cities cranking out beakers it'll take a really long time getting the techs eventhough your empire is well developed. It could also be so that your general income is to low. As far as I know it's so that your beakers are actually money that's converted. Hence when your money income is to low your beakers count woun't be that high either giving a long research time..

An other question though is: When you set the science slider to 50% is that 50% from your end income, eg is the amount of beakers you get derived from the amount of coins on the ground or after marketplaces and banks are accounted for.

	30-04-2003 22:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Vlado An other question though is: When you set the science slider to 50% is that 50% from your end income, eg is the amount of beakers you get derived from the amount of coins on the ground or after marketplaces and banks are accounted for.

Let's assume that your slider is 50% science and 50% tax. Each city gets the benefit of the actual gold it is producing from worked tiles -- let's assume the city's laborers are producing 20 gold. Next corruption is subtracted -- let's assume that the city loses 4 gold to corruption, meaning 16 gold are available. The 16 gold is then parceled out according to the slider -- in our case (50%-50%) 8 gold to science and 8 gold to taxes. These individual "packets" of 8 gold are then operated upon by city improvements. If the city had a market and bank, but no library, it would contribute to the empire 16 gold in taxes and 8 gold in science. If instead the city had a library and university but no market or bank, it would contribute to the empire 8 gold in taxes and 16 gold to science. The obligatory final hypothetical is the same city with market, bank, library, and university -- the city would then contribute 16 gold each to taxes and science.

Catt

	01-05-2003 01:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Let's assume that your slider is 50% science and 50% tax. Each city gets the benefit of the actual gold it is producing from worked tiles -- let's assume the city's laborers are producing 20 gold. Next corruption is subtracted -- let's assume that the city loses 4 gold to corruption, meaning 16 gold are available. The 16 gold is then parceled out according to the slider -- in our case (50%-50%) 8 gold to science and 8 gold to taxes. These individual "packets" of 8 gold are then operated upon by city improvements. If the city had a market and bank, but no library, it would contribute to the empire 16 gold in taxes and 8 gold in science. If instead the city had a library and university but no market or bank, it would contribute to the empire 8 gold in taxes and 16 gold to science. The obligatory final hypothetical is the same city with market, bank, library, and university -- the city would then contribute 16 gold each to taxes and science. Catt

Are you sure?
I have a size 13 city that produces 44 gold form laborers. The slider is 90% tax and 10% gold. The city has library, market, university and bank. Total commerce: 67; Total tax: 42 and no corruption; Total science: 4 and 21 corruption. No entertainers.
I tried, with the same city and during the same turn, to move the slider to 10% tax and 90% gold. Total commerce: 67; Total tax: 4 and no corruption; Total science: 42 and 21 corruption.

If I supposed that corruption is counted only once, I get with your explanation, for the first case:
- produce - corruption = 23
- brut part for tax = 23*0.9 = 20.7
- total tax = 20.7*1.5*1.5 = 46.575
- brut part for science = 23*0.1 = 2.3
- total for science = 2.3*1.5*1.5 = 5.175
Even if I trucate each result before calculation I don't get it correct.

Have I missed something?

	01-05-2003 01:38									#18
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Nym, city improvements work with the base value, not accumulated.

Instead of:
- total tax = 20.7*1.5*1.5 = 46.575
It is:
- total tax = 20.7 +(20.7*0.5) + (20.7*0.5) = 41.4

	01-05-2003 02:42									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Nym, city improvements work with the base value, not accumulated. Instead of: - total tax = 20.7*1.5*1.5 = 46.575 It is: - total tax = 20.7 +(20.7*0.5) + (20.7*0.5) = 41.4

OK. Thanks!

	02-05-2003 21:25									#20
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Agathon

I'm just wild guessing. Maybe you were sliding the wrong slider and had a citizen on scientist. You might have actually been buying entertainment.

Russ

	03-05-2003 21:12									#21
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Talking about sliders, taxes and rush-building, here's another question:
- Could anyone explain to me why the tax revenue lowers after you pay rush-built improvements in the turn that you do it? For example, let's imagine that I rush build a granary, and my previous income was +20. After rush-building, before finishing my turn, my income drops to +18, or +15.
It doesn't bother me much because in the next turn it is back to normal, but it is a strange tweak in the game. Can someone explain it?

	04-05-2003 01:42									#22
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pedrojedi,
Two guesses: (1) You had Wall Street and your rush dropped you below 1000 gold; or (2) when you rush an improvement (or even a unit), you incurr maintenance costs before you actually get what you paid for.

I hope it's (1), because (2) would be totally new to me, too.

	04-05-2003 04:50									#23
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Sorry, but (1) is not the case. Hehehe

	04-05-2003 08:47									#24
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You will notice that the income is updated dynamically. If you disband units you are paying for, you will notice a 1 gpt / unit disbanded increase in your income. The same goes for city improvements. You will be paying for it next turn, so the system let's you know what next turn's income will be.

[edit: wait a minute...rushing doesn't mean it get's built that turn. ]

Forget what I just said, but it might have some kind of impact.

	04-05-2003 10:56									#25
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If you are pop rushing, you lose any gold from the citizen you killed.

	04-05-2003 12:26									#26
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My same thought Dave.

	04-05-2003 13:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW If you are pop rushing, you lose any gold from the citizen you killed.

Good point!
But was he pop rushing?

	04-05-2003 22:19									#28
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No, I rush-built with cash. What really is strange is that the income does not change just the upkeep cost of the improvement/unit... usually is a lot more than that. And like I said, I does not bother me because in the next turn it's back to normal. I will note somethings down the next time I see this, but may take a while... Since now I'm in a game that is near the end, and I have Wall Street. The bothering thing happens before that.