30-04-2003 01:18									#1
	GoW's coast mapping Support Apolyton

Things are pretty slow here, so I figured I'd bring this up for discussion...

No one, as yet, seems to realize how big Legos is. There has been some outcry at our having a continent to ourselves, and also some posts that hint we might have the most land of any team, but the true size of our land has been kept pretty secret, and we've even managed to imply a smaller continent to some teams (good job, FA staff ). But GoW's coast mapping will eventually unravel all this; it's only a matter of time.

I'm not certain how many galleys GoW is using, but it seems to me there are two - one in the east, about to reach the RP crossing (it passed Zargonia recently, IIRC) and one in the west, which can't have gotten past Legos Minor yet, since Galleyleo is near the isthmus. Currently, GoW doesn't have much reason to think we have a lot of land - or very good land, either; they've seen the jungles on Legos Major and the mountains on Minor by now. But once "Old Ironsides," as I think the eastern galley is called, passes the southern edge of Legos Major and starts mapping westward, they'll begin to guess. Once the coastline map is complete, they will certainly know.

The worst case scenario is that they post free screenshots and incite Bob to unite against Lego. (I doubt either Vox or GS would join in; either their war will still be raging, or one or the other will be catching up in research and re-building conquered land). The best case scenario is that they don't mention it, and only teams who continue to buy their map and see for themselves will find out. (Actually, best case is that they don't post anything and don't trade maps anymore, but I don't think there's any way they'll do that.)

So, once GoW - and then probably at least one or two other teams - realize how big Legos is, I don't think there's much we can do to repair the damage; we'll look like a top dog, and in some ways we are, what with the Pyramids and fairly good start. Any smart team will realize we're a long-term danger; I don't think we really have any method of damage control. We may simply have to face a war with one or more Bob powers. Any ideas on how we can avoid this, smooth things over with Bob, etc?

	30-04-2003 01:42									#2
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I do not think we can avoid this. We should prepare for it.

I mean - I am quite serious... sooner or later others will realize that unless they do something about us, we are going to win, thanks to our starting location and thanks to the fact we did nothing seriously wrong (so far, that is). Our only worry should be how to prevent them from succeeding with that SOMETHING.

Let's keep in mind that Bob is way bigger than Legos. Anyone conquering the whole of it would have an even better chance to win. Any war against us would be just to slow us down, not to speed anyone else up (as any conquered land on Legos would be hardly useful w/o an FP city). OTOH, wars among Bobians would serve a double purpose for the winner - slow/annihilate other team(s), while accelerating themselves up (by gaining more PRODUCTIVE land).

I do not believe we will be able to avoid wars forever. Let's make sure we are prepared when the war comes to us.

That said, I do not really expect any invasion on Legos to happen any time soon.

	30-04-2003 03:27									#3
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As it stands, the Bobs are too involved in their internal struggles to do much about Legoland. Also they lack the transport to send an invasion fleet. So they are stuck watching us grow in the early game. When they find out how big we are, they will become more envious, but y there is little they can do.

As time progresses, they Bobs would be smart to join forces and to trim Legoland down a bit. I do think they are smart! So this will happen.

Vox is on our side and probably will remain there. I know that Betahound had mentioned a long-long term plan of destroying all the Bobs civs. Having Vox as our allie in the Great War, would be...well Great.

Also, it would be nice to have the war on Bob. We would not necessarily have to be the first to strike. But we must have a large invasion fleet ready.

Which of course brings up the question...When will this occur? That will be key to our planning. The when question depends on when Galleons or Transports are available. I don't think they will wait for Transports. We would be that much more advanced and would have railroads.

So I am certain the the Great War will happen; pitting Bob vs the Allies (Legoland and Vox). I think the best timing when Bob has calvary and galleons. I don't know what year that will be, but that can be determined.

As Vondrack stated, we must be preparted. So my question is how do we prepare? What units? How many? Where to positon them? Do we utilize a strong navy to keep the Galleons from landing? Many questions to fill the downtime.

	30-04-2003 04:39									#4
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I have a feeling that once GoW and ND get their unique "knight" units - that they will accelerate their plans to attack - question is whether it will be RP or us first.

It has been quite noticeable that neither civ has built any additional cities recently - most likely then they are:

a) building military units now - probably unlikely - unless they have a lot of cash to upgrade them - and at 80 gold per horse (cheaper for ND admittedly) that would be tremendously expensive.

b) building infrastructure - most likely - they are probably building libraries, mktplaces, aqueducts, etc. so to get them out of the way and also prevent them from falling too far behind when they do attack - they could also be aiming for a wonder or two (we already know that GoW is going for one)

With the limited space left to them and the corruption factors due to distance and optimal city amounts - I suspect that GoW and ND are probably not going to found many more cities for a while - besides in war you are only as strong as your weakest cities and new cities are usually weak - so they also might be building up defenses to prevent anyone from destroying / conquering any of their cities.

One thing may be for certain - whatever GoW and ND do, it will likely be as an united force - which is trouble for us due to their proximity to us.

We need to chat with GoW more - try to get on their good side - remind them that RP has just as big an area as us - PLUS all of those luxuries - perhaps even find out if they will betray ND eventually or not.

But most of all, prepare for an invasion eventually. These might be triggers for a possible invasion period:

1) When we move into anarchy - least likely if they haven't been preparing for a while
2) When they get their unique units - likely they will attack someone, but us? Iffy, as they would have limited transport capacity (galleys) and would be up against our still strong mercs plus the likelihood of triggering our Golden Age as well as theirs.
3) Before we can get gunpowder - might be a concern as with fortifying, population defense bonus we would be defending at up to 8 (or more on our hill cities)
4) Before we can get riflemen and especially infantry. Almost certain - with our defensive tendencies, population defense bonuses and our isolation) we would then be almost impossible to take out until a lot of tanks are available.

I suspect that they will try to move against us before we get too many muskets and after they get their unique units - around Navigation and the caravels might be the time.

	30-04-2003 08:34									#5
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops As Vondrack stated, we must be preparted. So my question is how do we prepare? What units? How many? Where to positon them? Do we utilize a strong navy to keep the Galleons from landing? Many questions to fill the downtime.

I agree that it'll be some combination of Knights (and UU equivs) or Cavalry & Caravels or Galleons. Heck, they could even use Knights in galleys; but I doubt they will, as galleys are expensive at this stage and there are likely some Bob wars to be fought (or that would be fought if someone went to Legos and left their borders exposed).

A navy that could get through and sink transports with their units would be best, but it'll be harder than it sounds. Galley battles, being completely even, depend on either complete luck or overwhelming force - and since there is no retreat in naval battles, overwhelming force will eventually be attritioned down to a more standard navy. And that's just with Galleys, which I doubt will be used much in any Lego war.

Caravels, the first transport I think we might face, have a major advantage over other attacking Caravels or Galleys (though Galleys are at least more cost-effective attackers vs. Caravels). There is no way to attack these effectively till Magnetism; if it comes to a pre-Magnetism war, we'll have no choice but to take the war to Bob if we want to take it off Legos.

Magnetism, with Frigates, offers the first truly offensive naval unit, and they're quite effective at taking on Galleons. The problem is, no upgrading is possible; they'd have to be built from scratch, and we'll be limited to Harbor cities. Frigates may not be useful as anything except escort units. Not to mention they tend to be quickly outdated by Ironclads a few techs and a new era later. Nevertheless, an offensive navy will be possible once we have Magnetism.

On top of these pre-Industrial naval problems, remember that GoW has forward bases on Mystery Isle/Taiwan. They could land 3 or 4 tiles from Jackson in two turns; that only offers one turn for attack before they return to GoW territory, and we'd have to have a big fleet up by MI ready to do so. If it was big enough, we would have some transports, but the surviving transports of the first wave could already be ashore by then - unless GoW Frigates/empty Galleons take all the hits, in which case the entire first wave would land, and on defensible mountains. In order to take naval superiority, I think we'd have to control MI, which would force an extra turn or two in travel time (unless they decide to duke it out on MI instead of Legos, but that would accomplish our goal of keeping them off Legos, so that would be okay. )

Anyway... end long post/rant about pre-Magnetism wars.

	30-04-2003 09:20									#6
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I see your point Kloreep, sinking their transports would be problematic. I could see them clearing out the seas before they sent their loaded transports. They would definitely get most of their transport to Legos.

Having a standing counter attack army near MI would be good. Like you said, take the battle to MI. But we would still have to fight the first wave on Legos.

I earlier had stated that Galleons and Calvary was the most likely attack force. But I had forgotten about the Knight UU. I think that we need to plan on Carvels and the UUs.

	30-04-2003 09:21									#7
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Another thought, we need to have sentry ships around MI to monitor the activities.

	30-04-2003 09:43									#8
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That is exactly what I have planned. We have GB who will be arriving off the coast of MI this turn to monitor things, and I'd like another near the Zargonia crossing to monitor that point, as well.

	30-04-2003 17:48									#9
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Zargon, your way ahead of me.

	02-05-2003 17:47									#10
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I'm not sure if this has already been brought up but didn'twe Provide GOW with the contact with VOX. If so three cheers for the cunning bastard(s) who arranged it.

	03-05-2003 02:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by rendelnep I'm not sure if this has already been brought up but didn'twe Provide GOW with the contact with VOX. If so three cheers for the cunning bastard(s) who arranged it.

IIRC, everyone had everyone else's contacts when we made contact; we weren't able to trade any around. That did make contact prices reasonable, though.