30-04-2003 06:46									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yeah that's a huge problem, that social thing they bring in the picture. I remember debate I saw in TV about Israel-Palestine conflict with Finnish jews and arabs debating.. One big thing that was like throwing fuel into fire was that one of the pro-Pals told 'Hamas is NOT terrorist organisation. It gives social security to people!'

That is a huge problem. Sure.. they give to the people, but if that makes it ok for them to kill innocent Israeli citizens, then hell I guess Hitler was a freedom fighter too!

Maybe UN or someone should see it through, that Palestinian people get social security from somewhere else than the Hamas. Then Hamas is not important to the people of Palestine. Then it only kills. And then we will see how much they get that support. I think it would drop drastically. After that, new campagn, but Hamas members faces on the Palestinian TV 24/7 with rewards of their heads like 'Osama Hussein, member of Hamas *picture*, last seen in X, goes by the names of X, age X, reward $10 000 tax free live or dead. Preferred dead.'

And with that, Palestines and Israels joint effort to hunt down every single member of the group. Only ones saved and sent to jail are the ones giving valid information about other members and leaders, those who will not co-operate, killed in sight without compensation to their families.

	30-04-2003 06:47									#32
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I know. In some cases, injuries are worse than death. But I hope an efficient emergency healing will minimize the damage.

	30-04-2003 06:49									#33
	Put an end to popups!

Hey, we're trained for this ..... .....

	30-04-2003 07:02									#34
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Someone at some point has probaly said this, but the whole Israel/Palastinian conflic is a catch-22. For those who do not know what that is, simple it is something that can not happen with the other thing happening. For example A has to happen for B to happen, but B has to happen for A to happen.

Neither side wants to give in, and in many ways it is understandable. But I think Abu Mazen wants to make peace much more so then Arafat, only time will tell. Based on what Sirotnikov, I think an outside force needs to be present to stop the violence as well. Neither side trusts the other, so a mutually trusted side needs to come in. I know this probaly will not go over well on either side. But since Sirotnikov said that the "palestinian police either ignored or actively participated in terrorism", it seems that Abu Mazen may be climbing a very steep hill. And when ever Israel enters palestine, it makes things worst.

It is because of this that another neutral force needs to go in. I honestly do not who could go in there to make order and get the trust of either side, I guess it is wishfull thinking.

I also think Israel should give one more shot. Yes it backfired before, but if it backfires again you can really say, "Look we continue to try, time after time. There is nothing else we can do unless they do something." Yes I know, we do not want it to fail again. But the more proof of how many times you tried, the better other areas may look upon you and maybe more nations will put big pressure on Palestine to fix itself.

Ultimatly though if the Palestinians, inside themselves, do not want to make concessions, peace, etc; the situation will just get worse. The solution will then reside in the children that need to be taught not to hate, that is where your problem lies. Untill the children stop hateing, children who become adults will also hate.

	30-04-2003 08:12									#35
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I Am Jeff- I think abu Mazen is more of a realist than Arafat. Thus, Israel could use that to it's advantage. I have no doubt he will curb terror... for a while.

We need to learn to use political tools to make it last longer.

quote: Yes it backfired before, but if it backfires again you can really say, "Look we continue to try, time after time. There is nothing else we can do unless they do something."

I can see your point, but it doesn't always work.

Imagine trying to walk through a wall, hitting your head, and then going at it again....


news update
Most of the casualties are in their 20s, some still in their teens.
They were enjoying a live blues performance at a pub called Jimmi's Place.
The terrorist detonated himself after being stopped by the secuirty guard, who demanded to check him and check his identification.

2 of the casualties are tourists - 1 an American and 1 a Frenchman.

	30-04-2003 11:12									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Mike's Place, not Jimmi's...

our condolences again.

I thought the guy got off a bus? Amazing how much conflicting info there is already.

	30-04-2003 11:48									#37
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My mistake.

I didn't write it down, and confused mike with jimmy.

It is indeed called mike's place.

	30-04-2003 16:02									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I wonder how many more Palestinians the IDF will kill?

	30-04-2003 16:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I wonder how many more Palestinians the IDF will kill?

That the best you can do?

	30-04-2003 16:08									#40
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How many?

	30-04-2003 16:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 How many?

Many of them seem to be pretty good at blowing themselves up without the IDF's assistance.

	30-04-2003 17:38									#42
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A bit unrelated :

quote: Syria-education DAMASCUS - 12:12 GMT Syria to switch school uniforms to pink and blue from khaki

	30-04-2003 18:00									#43
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Wow, everything happens. Good

I hope they'll continue the progressive de-militarization of society. Now, turn this Ba'ath uniform into bright yellow !

	30-04-2003 18:36									#44
	Put an end to popups!

If suicide attacks contiue, why does anyone expect this "road map" to be any different? As long as Hamas and others continues their attacks, no peace plan no matter how well intentionned is going to succeed. We should have learned that from Clinton's exhaustive attempts at a peace process. First, you destroy the terrorist organizations like Hamas, then you negotiate a political peace deal, not the other way around!

	30-04-2003 18:43									#45
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The Diplomat :

The problem is, this destruction must happen quasi-simulatneously with the application of the peace deal. There is a spiral of hate and violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians that can only stop if both parties take steps simultaneously.
The problem isn't only the Hamas. The problem is that they get a huge support in the Palestinian population for various reasons, the first one being the Israeli behaviour.

However, it would be stupid to ask the Israelis to stop their behaviour outright (by opening the doors of their country to the Pals for example), because it will ease the work of so many terrorists, even though their support wil fall progressively.

The only possible solution is that Israel and the Palestinian authority commonly destroy the Hamas while removing incentives to the population to recreate a similar group.

This can be done only if a peace plan is ready, and if a peace plan has been negociated beforehand.

	30-04-2003 19:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The problem is, this destruction must happen quasi-simulatneously with the application of the peace deal. There is a spiral of hate and violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians that can only stop if both parties take steps simultaneously. The problem isn't only the Hamas. The problem is that they get a huge support in the Palestinian population for various reasons, the first one being the Israeli behaviour. However, it would be stupid to ask the Israelis to stop their behaviour outright (by opening the doors of their country to the Pals for example), because it will ease the work of so many terrorists, even though their support wil fall progressively. The only possible solution is that Israel and the Palestinian authority commonly destroy the Hamas while removing incentives to the population to recreate a similar group. This can be done only if a peace plan is ready, and if a peace plan has been negociated beforehand.

I think history is showing that a simultaneous approach is not quite realistic because each terrorist attack that occurs not just destroys life but destroys a little bit of the peace process too. As we saw from the Oslo Plan, you end up with a "two steps forward, two step back" situation, ie, you make some progress in negotiations, then a single attack wipes out that progresss. You end up going nowhere.

The only solution IMO, is to get rid of the terrorists organizations first before you start the negotiation. That way there wouldn't be any violence that would get in the way of the peace negotiations.

But there is a deeper problem with these terrorists organizations. They are being funded and supported by Syria and Iran. If they did not receive any aid from these governments, the terrorists would never have to funds needed to carry these attacks. We must cut the ties between the terrorists and their state sponsors if we want any hope of eliminating terrorism. I am not suggesting we invade Syria or Iran. We should begin by applying real diplomatic, and economic pressure on these two regimes to immediately cease and desist their covert support to terrorism.

	30-04-2003 19:14									#47
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The first support to terrorist organizations comes from people. Countries do help very significantly, but it is delusional to think these terrorist organizations won't be able to operate anymore if the countries' funding is cut. Weakened, yes. But not disabled at all.