01-05-2003 13:51									#61
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quote: Originally posted by War of Art Who needs a motive if you're a nineteen year old cowboy with an automatic weapon surrounded by people you refer to as "rag-heads"

Who needs facts or an actual argument if you're a whiny poster who hides behind kneejerk stereotypes. (arab meaning)

quote: How about this car full of women and children that got shot up because the ruddy Yanks thought it might be a suicide bomber? Who goes car bombing with the wife and kids? I know I don't. -Jam

Gee, because you don't, that means they're all just like you. Let's see, you don't stop at a checkpoint, and try to run your way through for no particular reason, despite people pointing weapons and gesturing at you to stop? Not too bright, the day after another car splattered pieces of four US troops all over the ground.

******

Kman - there's no evidence of what went on, but that doesn't help the conclusion that whatever started it, this is a bad sign of a deteriorating situation, which may continue to get worse.

	01-05-2003 14:49									#62
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The real problem with shooting into a crowd of people is the US gains NOTHING in doing so. They are just confirming what many iraqis are being told; america is here to rule them.

You cant convince people otherwise when you fire upon them.

	01-05-2003 14:53									#63
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They're trained to shoot when shot at, and they're under order to return fire. The criminals here are the ones shooting from the crowd.

The Israelis have had to deal with this crap for years; now it's our turn.

	01-05-2003 14:57									#64
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Exactly mad monk, but do iraqis see it that way?

	01-05-2003 15:03									#65
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Who cares? The Iraqis fire on our troops. We shhot back killing some protesting Iraqis, from where the bullets came from.

Shooting back is fair game. The Iraqis don't like it, oh well.

	01-05-2003 15:07									#66
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I think that most will, if you figure in the politics of the region; this happened in a northern village, within Saddam's tribal territory, and has been noted as a stronghold of the Ba'ath Party.

Which is probably why we have airborne troops based there (and getting shot at) in the first place.

	01-05-2003 15:09									#67
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MM, that's right. We should pull our boys out and let the Kurds patrol.

	01-05-2003 15:14									#68
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Lancer, for someone who wanted to "liberate" the iraqi people, i think youd like to understand what happens to the psyche of the iraqis when you shoot at them. When you shoot at the people of iraq, not saddams henchmen.

does that make iraqis more receptive to the american presence there? America is just the lesser of two evils to them, so lets wrap this burrito up and get the **** out of the kitchen. before things get unpleasent.

Im not saying americans shouldnt defend themselves cause thats just stupid, but they should try to avoid incidents like this in the future.

	01-05-2003 17:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 Im not saying americans shouldnt defend themselves cause thats just stupid, but they should try to avoid incidents like this in the future.

"New orders boys. From now on, try NOT to get shot at, OK?"

	01-05-2003 17:30									#70
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gunkulator, you know what i mean

	01-05-2003 17:30									#71
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator "New orders boys. From now on, try NOT to get shot at, OK?"

"New orders boys. Don't mow down innocent civilians. Look before you shoot."

	01-05-2003 17:49									#72
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Since not all areas of the country have adequate police, I'm not sure how US troops can "avoid situations" where there might be trouble. I would fully expect you to heap criticism upon them if they did decide to abandon law and order missions. Also note that in one of the protests, the mob came to the Americans, not the other way around.

quote: "New orders boys. Don't mow down innocent civilians. Look before you shoot"

"It will be easy to distiguish terrorist from civilian by ..."

Sava, feel free to complete the sentance.

	01-05-2003 17:52									#73
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"... looking to see if they are carrying weapons."
"... looking to see if they are children."

	01-05-2003 17:54									#74
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"but if you hear gunfire from a crowd, best to just stand there and get shot at."

	01-05-2003 18:06									#75
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Some of the Paras involved in Bloody Sunday in '72 claimed that they were shot at by gunmen during the riot, which is when they shot back...look what happened there. You do not go firing into crowds on the off chance that you might get the people who are apparently shooting at you.

The end result of this was 25 years of terrorism...

It took the British Army (and government) a long time to learn this lesson...hopefully the US will be quicker, but I somehow doubt it.

	01-05-2003 18:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator "but if you hear gunfire from a crowd, best to just stand there and get shot at."

again, you are making the mistake of thinking there are only 2 possible courses of action.

Shoot into the crowd like a cowboy
Do nothing

Sorry, but it takes a very small amount of time to check your targets. And if NC's are in your line of sight, you DON'T SHOOT THEM.

	01-05-2003 18:12									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls You do not go firing into crowds on the off chance that you might get the people who are apparently shooting at you.

Please provide a reasonable alternative. If you suggest "run away" then you are basically acquiesing to mob rule. If the victorious mob then proceeded to loot and vandalize, I would fully expect massive criticism from the same people who are biatching about the shooting.

Shoot at the military - get shot back at. The shooters are using the crowd as cover so THEY are responsible for the consequences.

quote: The end result of this was 25 years of terrorism...

LOL! I think there might just be a tad bit more history involved than that one day in 1972.

	01-05-2003 18:30									#78
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"I think there might just be a tad bit more history involved than that one day in 1972"

Not really...Bloody Sunday became a potent symbol, and recruiting device for the IRA. It didn't need any more. The fact that we then went and gifted them internment is by the by...we would have had to have dealt with Bloody Sunday directly (as the recent trials over it) straight away to have a hope of recovering lost ground.

Hopefully the US will deal with this well, but as I say I doubt it...

	01-05-2003 18:33									#79
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quote: Please provide a reasonable alternative.

Fire single shots at confirmed targets rather than spraying automatic rifle fire into a crowd. What's so hard to understand here?

	01-05-2003 18:37									#80
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Some Iraqis make it Hell on many Iraqis.

Who is really to blame?

	01-05-2003 18:48									#81
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"Who is really to blame?"

The arseholes who don't want this to work...you, however, should be very careful not to give them ammunition.

	01-05-2003 19:04									#82
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Sava, they aren't police, and they aren't trained to be police. I said this several times before -- and I know MtG has said it numerous times. They are trained to take down opposition quickly and permanently, and they are trained very, very well. It's how they stay alive in a war.

	01-05-2003 19:11									#83
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Sava, they aren't police, and they aren't trained to be police. I said this several times before -- and I know MtG has said it numerous times. They are trained to take down opposition quickly and permanently, and they are trained very, very well. It's how they stay alive in a war.

That's exactly my point. They shouldn't be in there trying to keep the peace. Let the UN go in and be responsible for this crap. I'm sick of these situations. It's just ammo for the America-hating Mullahs.

	01-05-2003 19:22									#84
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At some point the Iraqi population has to take responsibility, and accountability, for the acts of the minority of the citizens.

Seven U.S. Soldiers Wounded in Iraq Grenade Attack
Thu May 1, 7:16 AM ET

By Saul Hudson

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Seven U.S. soldiers were wounded in a grenade attack at their base in the Iraqi city of Falluja, where American troops killed at least 15 people during protests this week, the U.S. military said on Thursday.


"The attack was an expression of the anger of a few people in the city after what happened," Captain Alan Vaught said in reference to the U.S. shootings at earlier anti-American demonstrations.


The U.S. soldiers wounded in the grenade attack late on Wednesday were evacuated from the city 30 miles west of Baghdad. A U.S. Central Command statement said of the seven wounded, five required medical attention and were in stable condition.


After the attack, U.S. troops exchanged gunfire with Iraqis. Centcom, which said U.S. forces had "exercised their inherent right to self-defense," had no estimates of Iraqi casualties.


Falluja Mayor Taha Badawi Hamid al-Alwani condemned the grenade attack.


"Anybody, whoever he is, American or Iraqi, who resorts to violence is an evil person," said Alwani, selected by local tribesmen to lead the city after the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) on April 9.


Deputy Mayor Ziad Mekhlif said: "The religious leaders in the city are working with the government to ask the people to stay calm. But, if the Americans make a mistake and overreact again, I don't know how we will contain the hatred."


Tension has been running high in the conservative Sunni Muslim city of about 270,000 over the presence of U.S. troops stationed in a former Baath party compound protected with barbed wire and guarded from sand-bagged gun positions on the roof.


ANTI-AMERICAN BANNERS


While residents generally say they are grateful the Americans ousted Saddam, they have made clear they want U.S. troops to leave them to govern their city as soon as possible.


On the perimeter walls of the mayor's compound, residents hung anti-American banners. "Sooner or later U.S. killers we'll kick you out," read one sign, written in English.


Other banners repeated the message throughout the city.


"Go out of our city. If you refuse our women and children will kill you," another banner said, also in English.


On Monday, U.S. soldiers fired on an angry crowd demanding U.S. troops leave a school they had occupied. Thirteen Iraqis were killed. Two days later, two Iraqis were killed when U.S. soldiers opened fire in a similar incident.


The U.S. military said its troops were shot at first in both incidents but Iraqi witnesses said the shootings were unprovoked.


"I can't do anything now because they have tanks. But I will wait and I will kill Americans. I will take my revenge," said 14-year-old Ahmed Muthana, whose father was wounded and uncle killed when soldiers shot at demonstrations on Monday.


City officials said they had been meeting with U.S. troops to reduce tension and were negotiating for them to move their base to the outskirts of the city.





The American troops have left the school that sparked Monday's demonstration.

Deputy Mayor Mekhlif said the U.S. military presence was less visible on Thursday than in previous days with no road check points and fewer surveillance helicopters overhead.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, talking without a frame of reference is certainly JUST opinion, and uninformed opinion at that.






And Sava, knowing you're a practicing paranoid, this isn't directed at you.

	01-05-2003 20:11									#85
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I think the evidence is beginning to suggest that some Iraqis, perhaps former members of the Saddam régime, are deliberately trying to provoke the attacks by pulling their AK-47's and firing into the air. They don't fire at the American soldiers because that will leave bullet holes as evidence that would confirm that the first shots were fired from the crowd.

The hand grenade attack today confirms that the people of the town have military weapons.

It looks like the Saddam régime is not going to go down without a fight. However, it does suggest that US troops should hold their fire just a little longer.

I see that news reporters are now in the city. Perhaps now we can see real evidence of who fires first.

	01-05-2003 20:15									#86
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Falluja is apparently a Baathist stronghold, but interestingly the quoted article states that most people are glad the Americans came.

This is obviously an attempt by a minority still loyal to Oppression that is trying to sway public opinion against the US.

As they are now using military weapons, who can say a military response is not justified?

	01-05-2003 20:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sava That's exactly my point. They shouldn't be in there trying to keep the peace.

Weren't you one of the outraged here who decried the Marine's lack of policing Baghdad shortly after the fall? You can't have it both ways.

quote: Let the UN go in and be responsible for this crap. I'm sick of these situations. It's just ammo for the America-hating Mullahs.

All in good time. It's only been, what, 5-6 weeks for crissakes. You're acting like there should be complete law and order when there are still isolated pockets of resistance. Let's finish the fighting first, shall we?

In the meantime, fools who fire on soldiers shouldn't be surprised at the outcome.

	01-05-2003 21:12									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sava again, you are making the mistake of thinking there are only 2 possible courses of action. Shoot into the crowd like a cowboy Do nothing Sorry, but it takes a very small amount of time to check your targets. And if NC's are in your line of sight, you DON'T SHOOT THEM.

I hate even half-way agreeing with Lancer, but **** 'em. It is standard tactics in the area to use civilians as human shields. You get some people yelling, some throwing rocks, and in the midst of the crowd, a few who are armed, using the crowd for concealment and cover.

Going back to disagreeing with the knuckle-dragging, meat-thumping crowd, this is symptomatic of not having enough forces in theater at the start of the war, not having enough there now, and not being politically prepared for occupation. At least none of this "dancing in the streets" nonsense is being spouted now, but this type of confrontation wouldn't happen if the US was there in large enough force to patrol proactively. Fallujah has a battalion HQ and a company of airborne, with the other companies in the battalion separated and in other nearby areas, but too far for effective mutual support, and too low in strength to detach multiple platoon size patrols into the area.

Fallujah itself has a population of over a quarter million, it's a known hostile area, and you only have a battalion of troops spread between occupying al Fallujah, al Habbaniyah, two airfields in the area, and multiple crossings of the Euphrates river.

	02-05-2003 02:28									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sava "... looking to see if they are carrying weapons." "... looking to see if they are children."

This is rediculous, especially in a crowded chaotic protest. I cant believe what some people are expecting out of ordinary young men . They arent friggin super heroes who can spot danger across the city and take out the danger with pin pint accuracy. It cant be done by normal men.

Have you ever 'read' those "Where's Waldo" books? Yeah, i did them, but it took me only god knows how long. Your expecting young men to do the exact same thing instantaneously... get real.

I understand how this only hurts the US, but the criticism i am hearing, for the most part, is complete, typical antiamerican, idealistic crap.

	02-05-2003 05:45									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The hand grenade attack today confirms that the people of the town have military weapons.

Quite natural,
as there seem to be a lot of Weapon caches in most of the cities (and the military is only very slowly destroying the weapons).

It dseems to be very easy for everyone to get weapons in Iraq