02-05-2003 05:14									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GP I think the legal questions have to do with complicity of the ISPs and such. No serious question that copying music itself is a violation of copyright.

Until someone is convicted of it, the question of how far "fair use" extends in this context will not be legally defined.

	02-05-2003 05:44									#32
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quote: But how do they know it isn't a parady of the crappy new Metallica song? I mean wouldn't they have to go to this guys house and check his hard drive to make sure he had the stole goods?

Of course not. If it's being shared they can download it to check it's validity.

	02-05-2003 05:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Until someone is convicted of it, the question of how far "fair use" extends in this context will not be legally defined.

It's a stretch. People have been convicted of electronic copying of files. I doubt there is any question about it. Check out the Digital Multimedia Act.

	02-05-2003 05:57									#34
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Well, until a few years ago, in Tempe, Arizona it was legal to shoot someone for stealing your horse. Both laws are stupid.

	02-05-2003 06:06									#35
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quote: Check out the Digital Multimedia Act.

It's the "Digital Millenium Copyright Act", and it's constitutionally questionable, as far as many are concerned. I believe this is the first test of this particular article of that act.

	02-05-2003 06:07									#36
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I bet they didn't have to many horse thieves in Tempe.

	02-05-2003 06:17									#37
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Verizon faces a problem. Each one of these requests costs Verison some $. The RIAA does not offer compensation. The number of these requests per year could run into the millions. The amount of dollars involved could be substantial.

Also, I can see the RIAA filing a class action against millions of Americans (mostly kids who are using their parents' computers for piracy). Of course the RIAA will win, and you, Joe citizen will be sent a judgment and be asked to pay. You have no defense. Even if your kid is responsible.

Each violation, each copy, has a statutory minimum award of $750. If your kid downloads 1,000 songs, your out of pocket to pay the RIAA would be a mere $750,000 minimum.

We are talking serious money here.

	02-05-2003 06:20									#38
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Also, imagine the plaintiff running dog law firms who will be chomping at the bit to take such a case! Their take of the awards could be in the billions!

	02-05-2003 06:22									#39
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You could always move to Canada and download to your hearts content.

How's that for sticking it to the RIAA

	02-05-2003 06:23									#40
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How long do you think it will be before someone comes up with a program that masks your IP number from *ahem* unwanted attention?

	02-05-2003 06:45									#41
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I don't know that this is possible, the problem being that the IP is essential to the operation of the network. By the way, how, precisely, is the RIAA obtaining the IP

	02-05-2003 22:30									#42
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hi ,

and what when you use identity spoofing , ......


and since when does an IP confirm the fact a crime has happend , ......

they shall have to do better , ...

have a nice day

	02-05-2003 22:34									#43
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Shouldn't the RIAA be getting the people who download the songs instead of the people sharing them, or only getting at the people sharing them if they are sharing music that they themselves have stolen.

It isn't as if they are broadcasting the music by making it available to share. Any more than I am if I leave my fair use copies in a place where others can steal them.

	02-05-2003 22:40									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GP It is theft.

What, pray tell, has been stolen?

	03-05-2003 00:35									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What, pray tell, has been stolen?

Why do you think they ban video recorders from movie theaters?

Agathon: Since I don't know if anyone has answered your precedent question yet, does Napster fit what you are asking for?

	03-05-2003 00:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why do you think they ban video recorders from movie theaters?

That is the policy of the theaters usually, but it still isn't "stealing" anything.

File-sharing folks tend not to do illegal things with the music they download (i.e. burning and selling CDs of the music, Albert Speer not withstanding). Downloading a file is no more "stealing" something than making a cassette tape of a radio station playing music is "stealing" something.

	03-05-2003 00:50									#47
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , yeah right , ...... have a nice day

Just how do you think the servers know where to send data if IP address were not publically visible?

Are you refering to proxies?

	03-05-2003 00:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Agathon: Since I don't know if anyone has answered your precedent question yet, does Napster fit what you are asking for?

That was against the company rather than individual sharers. I remember Metallica sued some kids for sharing their stuff, but it seems odd that people should be punished for sharing rather than downloading shared files.

In New Zealand it is pretty clear since we don't have any legal "fair use" rights. Having said that, no one has ever been prosecuted for making a tape for their car.

I'd also like to know whether we buy the rights to listen to the music when we buy it. For example, I have a load of cassettes I bought back in the eighties. Is it illegal for me to download these songs if I have already in essence paid for them? I could of course copy them into Mp3 from the cassettes but that would be unecessarily difficult. and it isn't as if the quality of Mp3s is much better than that of a good cassette.

	03-05-2003 01:26									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That is the policy of the theaters usually, but it still isn't "stealing" anything. File-sharing folks tend not to do illegal things with the music they download (i.e. burning and selling CDs of the music, Albert Speer not withstanding). Downloading a file is no more "stealing" something than making a cassette tape of a radio station playing music is "stealing" something.

If you go across the hallway and borrow a CD from a buddy in your dorm and burn a tape of it, that is stealing. It violates copyright law. I was at the Naval Academy when this became an issue. They got legal clarification and they also kicked some people out for honor violations. It is not fair use. If you've purchased something, than fair use is defined that you can make a copy for your own use.

	03-05-2003 01:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GP If you go across the hallway and borrow a CD from a buddy in your dorm and burn a tape of it, that is stealing. It violates copyright law. I was at the Naval Academy when this became an issue. They got legal clarification and they also kicked some people out for honor violations. It is not fair use. If you've purchased something, than fair use is defined that you can make a copy for your own use.

Again, that's not "stealing." It may not be "fair use," but it is not theft, as nothing is stolen. I want to know how it is considered theft.

And would you advocated prosecuting people for taping songs of the radio for personal listening use? It's absurd, and I don't see a bit of difference between this and that.

The standards the Naval Academy uses for discipline doesn't matter here, as I hardly think military academy standards should be adopted for the general public.

	03-05-2003 01:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That was against the company rather than individual sharers. I remember Metallica sued some kids for sharing their stuff, but it seems odd that people should be punished for sharing rather than downloading shared files. In New Zealand it is pretty clear since we don't have any legal "fair use" rights. Having said that, no one has ever been prosecuted for making a tape for their car. I'd also like to know whether we buy the rights to listen to the music when we buy it. For example, I have a load of cassettes I bought back in the eighties. Is it illegal for me to download these songs if I have already in essence paid for them? I could of course copy them into Mp3 from the cassettes but that would be unecessarily difficult. and it isn't as if the quality of Mp3s is much better than that of a good cassette.

At least in the US, you are allowed to make a tape copy of your own CD. But not to make a copy of someone else's CD or have them make one for you. The allowance to make a tape backup is just a specific legal allowance. I think it would actually be more consistent if you weren't allowed to make copies for yourself, either.

	03-05-2003 01:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Again, that's not "stealing." It may not be "fair use," but it is not theft, as nothing is stolen. I want to know how it is considered theft. And would you advocated prosecuting people for taping songs of the radio for personal listening use? It's absurd, and I don't see a bit of difference between this and that. The standards the Naval Academy uses for discipline doesn't matter here, as I hardly think military academy standards should be adopted for the general public.

When I use the term stealing for copyright violations, it is cute usage. The point remains that you are taking somthing that doesn't belong to you. The ability to copy that material is "righted".

I don't think that the USNA honor code applies tio civilians. (For instance equivocation is considered lying under the code, whereas (apparently) it is ok for grand jury witnesses. My point was that when this whole thing became an issue at USNA, they had to decide how to handle it under the code. in the process of researching the issue and deciding how they would handle it, they checked the laws on fair usage. They found that it is legal to make a tape for yourself of your own music. But it is illegal to make copies of other people's CD's. (or have them burn them for you.)

	03-05-2003 18:34									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Just how do you think the servers know where to send data if IP address were not publically visible? Are you refering to proxies?

hi ,

thats one way , ....

"identity spoofing" , .....

is another , ..... there is also dynamic IP , .....

have a nice day

and no , i am not going to describe all the ways in a public forum , ....

	07-05-2003 02:12									#54
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No expectations of privacy: From the judge's decision on a second subpoena, this one raising two constitutional issues.

"
In the end, Verizon's customers should have little expectation of privacy (or anonymity) in infringing copyrights. Subscribers to Verizon's Internet services are put on clear notice that they
cannot use Verizon's service or network to infringe copyrights. See Verizon Online Terms of Service, http://www.verizon.net/policies/pop...etaa_popup.asp. In fact, as part of its corporate policy, Verizon alerts its subscribers at the outset that it will "disclose individual customer
information to an outside entity . . . when Verizon is served with valid legal process for customer information." See Verizon Privacy Principles, http://www22.verizon.com/About/Privacy/genpriv.
And if an individual subscriber opens his computer to permit others, through peer-to-peer filesharing, to download materials from that computer, it is hard to understand just what privacy
expectation he or she has after essentially opening the computer to the world. See United States v. Kennedy, 81 F. Supp. 2d 1103, 1110 (D. Kan. 2000) (no expectation of privacy where user has
opened files up on home computer to anyone who wants to receive them)."

Attachment: verizon.pdf
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	07-05-2003 03:24									#55
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P2P distributors Grokster and Streamcast do not infringe, even though their users may.

See the attached file.

Attachment: grokster.pdf
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