01-05-2003 09:10									#1
	Relating to the Verizon file sharing supoena... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The company seems to be appealing on the basis that the media in question is not hosted on their servers.

My question: why not appeal on the basis that the RIAA had no legal authority to be monitoring the IP address in question? I mean, they require a warrant to tap a phone, so shouldn't the same go for your computer? Any precedent for this?

	01-05-2003 09:10									#2
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IP addresses are publically visible.

	01-05-2003 09:11									#3
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But monitoring the activity from them would require some effort, would it not?

	01-05-2003 09:13									#4
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But since the information is public, it'd be more like overhearing a conversation in a public park rather than tapping someone's private phone.

	01-05-2003 09:15									#5
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But you're recording the conversation word for word...

	01-05-2003 09:17									#6
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Is it illegal to record the conversation when two people are shouting at eachother in a public park?

	01-05-2003 09:18									#7
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The problems are simple
1) The users are willingly making their files public on a trading network
2) Their IP addresses are inherently public, for the internet to work
3) Since both the address and the files are public, it would not be feasable to go after the RIAA on legal grounds saying they had no right to look at the IP addresses or the public contents

	01-05-2003 09:18									#8
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I still think the best way for Verizon to go is the "common carrier route", ergo telephone companies can't be responsible for what people talk about, etc.

	01-05-2003 09:20									#9
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Alright, so there's no legal argument in that regard. So, short of encrypting the connection, the only way to stop this is to challenge the method that the record companies use to obtain the user's information, correct?

	01-05-2003 10:19									#10
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Or stop stealing.

	01-05-2003 11:33									#11
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Stopped beating your wife yet?

	01-05-2003 12:00									#12
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I have had personal conversations with Verizon lawyers on this issue. It turns out that the RIAA has "agents" that download, inspect people's hard drives for illegal content, and report back. (Corporations and government agenicies are alarmed over RIAA's spyware.)

Now, if that is not an invasion of privacy, I don't know what is.

Also, the IP addresses for Verizon are dynamically assigned to most users. Verizion actually may not be able to answer the question of who had so and so IP address on so and so date at so and so time.

	01-05-2003 21:01									#13
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^ I'd be more troubled by RIAA's definition of "illegal content". If I've bought & paid for the CDs/tapes/LPs of the music that I have on my hard drive in MP3 format, then I do not possess illegal content. If another user downloads content that he legally owns on another form of media, he has not broken any laws. It's only in the case of the user who hasn't purchased the media, that one can build a case on law-breaking. But, of course, there's no feasible way to make that distinction (short of a warrant to search your home for what music you do and don't own, which I'm thinking would be near-impossible to get, and RIAA knows it), so to RIAA, everyone is guilty until proven innocent. Some "free society"

	02-05-2003 02:31									#14
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I've seen firsthand what these RIAA 'agents' do. Lately they have mostly been targeting college dorms where users have easily traceable static IP's. My sister got a message from UA res life saying they had been contacted by the RIAA antipiracy unit and unless she stopped sharing files her internet access would be terminated.

I think it's important to note that the RIAA doesn't seem to care what you download (mostly because they have no way to track it). They seem to target people based on what they're sharing. This is easy to do. Someone could just create a Kazaa login and look at what some user is sharing. If they find copyrighted stuff, they track the IP and report it.

The freakin' RIAA Nazis are so crazy though, that my sister got this notice when she was only sharing 10 files. That is ridiculous. They went after her because her IP was easily traceable instead of going after someone like oh... I dunno... me who shares thousands of files but regularly turns on and of the cable modem to get a new IP.

And as far as that 'stealing' crap, I will argue to the bitter end that filesharing increases record sales. There is a large amount of evidence to support this.

	02-05-2003 02:36									#15
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The on off trick is a new one to me; I always assumed a cable modem had the same IP designated by the provider. Is that true?

Also is there a way to use a mirrior IP address while using Kaaza or Morpheus? That aught to stop the Nazis butt cold.

	02-05-2003 02:38									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike I've seen firsthand what these RIAA 'agents' do. Lately they have mostly been targeting college dorms where users have easily traceable static IP's. My sister got a message from UA res life saying they had been contacted by the RIAA antipiracy unit and unless she stopped sharing files her internet access would be terminated. I think it's important to note that the RIAA doesn't seem to care what you download (mostly because they have no way to track it). They seem to target people based on what they're sharing. This is easy to do. Someone could just create a Kazaa login and look at what some user is sharing. If they find copyrighted stuff, they track the IP and report it. The freakin' RIAA Nazis are so crazy though, that my sister got this notice when she was only sharing 10 files. That is ridiculous. They went after her because her IP was easily traceable instead of going after someone like oh... I dunno... me who shares thousands of files but regularly turns on and of the cable modem to get a new IP. And as far as that 'stealing' crap, I will argue to the bitter end that filesharing increases record sales. There is a large amount of evidence to support this.

Doesn't matter whether it increases sales or not. The music is copyrighted. It is stealing.

	02-05-2003 03:02									#17
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It's previewing. I want to give something a listen before I buy it because I want to know if it sucks or not. Call it a test drive. With the massive amount of **** the music industry cranks out right now, I think that's acceptable.

	02-05-2003 03:09									#18
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Has there actually been a prosecution yet that proves that file sharing is illegal? Everyone assumes it is but I don't know if there is actually a legal precedent for this. I'd be interested to know.

And don't boast about piracy or this thread will get deleted

	02-05-2003 03:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike It's previewing. I want to give something a listen before I buy it because I want to know if it sucks or not. Call it a test drive. With the massive amount of **** the music industry cranks out right now, I think that's acceptable.

It is theft.

	02-05-2003 03:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GP It is theft.

Well then - where's the legal record??? I'd really like to know.

	02-05-2003 03:27									#21
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Out of curiosity does the RIAA know for sure that the files being traded where copy righted? If all they know is that files were being traded then what is to say they weren't trading public domain files?

	02-05-2003 03:31									#22
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Yes, they can see the file names from the users they look at, so if the file says Metallica - Crappy New Metallica Song, they can be pretty sure it's a copyrighted file that's being shared.

	02-05-2003 04:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Well then - where's the legal record??? I'd really like to know.

Crimes are not based on "record-keeping".

	02-05-2003 04:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GP Crimes are not based on "record-keeping".

No but in our countries a law has to be tested by going through a court trial to create a "precedent". Until a law is tested this way it isn't clear how it is going to be applied and whether it is constitutional.

All I want to know is whether this has actually happened yet.

	02-05-2003 04:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Asher IP addresses are publically visible.

hi ,

yeah right , ......

have a nice day

	02-05-2003 04:44									#26
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But how do they know it isn't a parady of the crappy new Metallica song? I mean wouldn't they have to go to this guys house and check his hard drive to make sure he had the stole goods?

Personnally, If I was him then I'd upgrade to a new hard drive, keep my old one at a friends house, and deny any copy righted material ever changed hands. The burden off proof is on the prosocuter not the defendent.

	02-05-2003 04:46									#27
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www.cyberscrub.com

	02-05-2003 04:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No but in our countries a law has to be tested by going through a court trial to create a "precedent". Until a law is tested this way it isn't clear how it is going to be applied and whether it is constitutional. All I want to know is whether this has actually happened yet.

I think the legal questions have to do with complicity of the ISPs and such. No serious question that copying music itself is a violation of copyright.

	02-05-2003 05:04									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, the IP addresses for Verizon are dynamically assigned to most users. Verizion actually may not be able to answer the question of who had so and so IP address on so and so date at so and so time.

If they follow normal security and logging procedures, they can. It's no problem to match a phone number to a specific IP assignment, as long as the dumps are still around.

Also, a lot of dial-up hosts that offer specific plans (like limited use hourly vs. unlimited) have separate logs for account tracking from their access logs. If you make an initial request a year later, you're obviously out of luck, but assuming that RIAA gave Verizon notice that the IP was engaged in illegal activity and that they obtained a subpoena shortly thereafter, then Verizon is obligated to maintain those records while the legal proceedings drag on.

	02-05-2003 05:14									#30
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What is to say the phone company can intentially begin using random assignments and not record the records just so they can then avoid liability. After all the RIAA would have to prove a crime was commited and if the records don't exist that would make life a lot harder for the RIAA.