02-05-2003 00:42									#1
	War is FUN! Full PM-box? Change here!

Okay, this is not my idea, or at least, I'm not to first to state it. But this discussion has been spread over multiple threads, which makes it not that easy to keep track of all the ideas... So this is my attempt to separate the discussion a little, and structure our forum some more. Please keep details on plans to other threads, to avoid turning this in another 300 post thread with a plethora of topics (it's not easy, I know)

It seems like the war with Vox is going good, partly because we responded well to the initial threat, partly because of pure and simple luck. So, it is about time to start considering what we can do that will be remembered, to start thinking of tactics that are worthy to note in a possible AAR (or the Chronical) later.

So far, my list of fun things are:
- Grog. He has been our life saviour, and his scouting role cannot be underestimated. The way I look at it, he was worth over 15 spears, it was a super decision to keep him where he was, even if he prolly annoyed Vox for 2000 years.
- being able to start our GA early because of a minor slip up of Vox when going after our scouting warrior (Slash?)
- Threatening the Vox colony with 2 empty boats (we need to keep this threat real!)
- the first turn with serious chances of killing Vox units, we killed all of the possible threats, handling the GoW 'invasion', generating a leader in the process. Unfortunately, even if we still had some reserve troops left, the most fun part was given by the RNG.
- the trashtalking about Wet Chickens (as a minor aside, as it has little to do with how we play)

Ideas that have been posted that would certainly be fun if they play right:
- Inchon. Even if it very likely is not the best tactic to stop Vox reinforcements and iron, it's simply fun to do it. Maybe we should either not attack D-ville in order to make it count, or maybe Inchon should be build in the middle of Vox country to taunt them some more (i.e. on the other side of Elipolis).
- Waiting for the Vox road to finish, before using it ourselves to invade them. I think we need to decide very quickly if we want to go for it, as it obviously will be risky to perform. But I like it... even if going for the road makes an Inchon strat too costly for what will be gained from it
- invading Bob will be fun anyway, certainly if we could build enough forces to get RP down in only a couple of turns.

Some more ideas:
- GoW has invaded us, why wouldn't we invade them ourselves? Pretty soon, we'll have enough forces to spare, so we can invade little Bob, and even if it would be totally nonsense to go for a couple of non-irrigatable cities, it would again seriously taunt them. Too bad for UnO's stories, though... but what a surprise would it be if we would invade them out of the blue?
- Get some scouting done, and starting to transform our empire in a island state. There have to be more islands out there, why not go look for them?
- building a galley-only invasion force for Vox, and let our first attack be on TheVoice, instead of D-ville. That won't be easy to perform, but surely would be fun.
- Take Port Isolation back, and give it to Vox to end the war, when we have all their other cities taken... create a refuge for them, at cost of GoW. If they don't want to, fine by me, but at least we were trying to keep them alive
- Give Vox the time to do a 'Lux maneuver', disbanding their cities instead of taking them ourselves. Not sure what the fun part would be, but at least it would give them the idea they took initiative.
- when we fear Bob about to unite and invade us, declare war on them ourselves. The problem is that it will give them extra happiness, which is not so fun at all. It certainly would get them thinking, though
- if we invade RP, invade from the West, instead of from the East. Or, the turn after we invaded from the East, get a surprise attack on the West as well. The lighthouse is something that can certainly be turned into a super fun thing to use, as it will make it possible to create complete surprise invasions. I think we should definately use it like that, which means we have to be quickly (before Astronomy)

any others?

DeepO

	02-05-2003 01:04									#2
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Look East. Look Far East. Who do you see?

Thats right, unsuspecting lego.

It would take probably 3 turns? for our galleys to reach lego shores. They would totally not expect it. And it would be fun, get them more invovled in the game.

They won't have allies on their island that can save them.

	02-05-2003 01:16									#3
	Re: War is FUN! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

edit: dp

but I thought of another

how about joining in the attack on ND? We could become super evil and exploit an already weakend adversary. Gain ground on bob, then take the others. Pay GoW to attack RP. Then take GoW

I would also like to see, when we get them, a pillaging war using explorers. Drop off a bunch on bob and let them go to work.


What about privateers? They could be great fun, too bad they are only good in fleets. I never use them, was that bug fixed (where you could tell the country of origin?) can privateers bombard land

	02-05-2003 01:18									#4
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I thought about that one, but wouldn't that be a little too much fun, and too seriously against our other objectives? If we invade Lego, we won't have any possible friend for sure, whereas if we invade Bob, we have still a chance of some kind of friendship from them.

I agree we should check out if we can reach them, though

DeepO

	02-05-2003 01:22									#5
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cross post. I was talking about the Lego invasion in my last post

Privateers should certainly be on that list! But only if they can't be detected. And it's not that bad we'll need fleets of them, we can manage to do that, for fun only. It would be so cool to have privateer-wars

DeepO

	02-05-2003 01:26									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO cross post. I was talking about the Lego invasion in my last post Privateers should certainly be on that list! But only if they can't be detected. And it's not that bad we'll need fleets of them, we can manage to do that, for fun only. It would be so cool to have privateer-wars DeepO

We might need to hire on Betahound if we want privateers, to deny their use on the public forum. Too bad we will have one or two less teams when they come around. If there were 5 other civs, then it would be much easier to deny they were ours. We could place them between Lego and BoB, cause if they were next to us, might be more obvious.

	02-05-2003 01:49									#7
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Privateers aren't gonna fool humans, not unless we're real slick about it. We're good, but I don't think we're slick.

I wanna do Inchon. And then maybe drop a major can of whoopass on RP out of the blue. No warning whatsoever.

Of course, we will probably need to do some building at some point, which cramps our warrior style, like.

-Arrian

	02-05-2003 01:52									#8
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Out of all, the most fun idea I've heard was to attack RP from the East, IMHO preferably after the initial attack from the West is launched; then a much smaller Eastern invasion would have an incredible destruction potential. And, it would be sooo FUNNY on the public arena!
Declaring war on Bob before they do on us would be funny, but I don't see how this could benefit us in any way. It reminds me of something, though: every once in a while, declare peace; it will confuse the heck out of your enemies.

	02-05-2003 02:24									#9
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Privateers will indeed be very painful to mess with, but it would be so un-GS that we may use it to our advantage. And we can always fake attacks. But yes, we're not really slick, so perhaps we would better avoid that.

As to the Western invasion of RP (Shiber, you have your directions confused, I think): the problem is it could work, and it could work well, but we'll need many turns to get our forces there, and their cities won't be empty anyway. They need some defense against ND, which they won't move because we invade from the East. It would be a costly maneuver, but could work very well if performed right. But, it would be risky, any galley sailing the Southern side of Bob would detect us, even if we stay as far out in the sea as possible. We would only need a small window, though, 4 or 5 turns would be enough to get into position.

DeepO

	02-05-2003 02:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Shiber, you have your directions confused, I think

I do, sorry, tired.

	02-05-2003 03:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO As to the Western invasion of RP (Shiber, you have your directions confused, I think): the problem is it could work, and it could work well, but we'll need many turns to get our forces there, and their cities won't be empty anyway. They need some defense against ND, which they won't move because we invade from the East. It would be a costly maneuver, but could work very well if performed right. But, it would be risky, any galley sailing the Southern side of Bob would detect us, even if we stay as far out in the sea as possible. We would only need a small window, though, 4 or 5 turns would be enough to get into position. DeepO

The only drawback to an attack on RP West is that I think thats where 85% of their army is, due to the border with ND. Probably concentrated in Zaragosa and Santiago. An attack on the SW city of Vigo would be interesting, as it would force them to split their forces three ways, against ND, against us in the SW and against us in the E. Wow, talk about fun.

	02-05-2003 03:19									#12
	Re: War is FUN! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DeepO - Take Port Isolation back, and give it to Vox to end the war, when we have all their other cities taken... create a refuge for them, at cost of GoW. If they don't want to, fine by me, but at least we were trying to keep them alive

Aren't you the king of culture, DeepO? Surely you see the problems with that idea. Though we could abandon and build cities on their old sites. I've been thinking about that, how we would have to abandon a city and rebuild it in the same turn, in order to avoid outcry on the main forum, they would never know it happened (unless they spied on it, but why would they do that?) We could build settlers to abandon, then move those guys south to the jungle to fill, and have a cyclone built settler there in place. Good fun. We are at a culture defecit currently, though the 2 wonders will help.

	02-05-2003 03:45									#13
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You know, it just occurred to me... we can use our Workers on the open ground around Arashi and Sandstorm with relative impunity.

What, Vox is going to *sacrifice* and Immortal to capture a slave?

The trash-talk opportunities abound!!

"Workers = War Chickens" in disguise

SR could write: "Timeline for the ultra-early Worker Rush"

There's got to be relevant Izzardisms too.

	02-05-2003 03:50									#14
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BTW, I am with Arrian:

Inchon, with simultaneous threats to the northeast and Dissidentville.

We are the Strat guys, after all.

	02-05-2003 05:37									#15
	Re: Re: War is FUN! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Aren't you the king of culture, DeepO? Surely you see the problems with that idea. Though we could abandon and build cities on their old sites. I've been thinking about that, how we would have to abandon a city and rebuild it in the same turn, in order to avoid outcry on the main forum, they would never know it happened (unless they spied on it, but why would they do that?) We could build settlers to abandon, then move those guys south to the jungle to fill, and have a cyclone built settler there in place. Good fun. We are at a culture defecit currently, though the 2 wonders will help.

Well, I know there is a problem with culture, however it would easily be solved. Currently, we're little over half their culture, and raising. That's good enough to have a decent shot at keeping cities, although we'll need defenders in all Vox' former cities to completely negate flipping chances. With their cities gone, and us focusing on culture a bit more (we're going to need libraries soon), this problem shouldn't take long to resolve.

BTW, disbanding cities with settlers doesn't completely negate the problem, as settlers will keep their nationality. If you start a new city with a 'foreign' settler, you still get one foreigner in the city. The difference is that our culture would always be bigger in such a city then when conquering another one, which halves the chances, or needed defenders.

DeepO

	02-05-2003 05:42									#16
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I forgot to include the worker taunt in my list of things we already did, I certainly consider it funny. And there is no reason to stop doing it, but please, don't overdo it, and don't do it when we anticipate Vox moving onto the flats at that tile anyway. If we would make it possible for them to capture 3 or 4 workers at once, they will consider it the best option for their wounded immortals, and will take the bait eagerly. And we would lose a lot of population, which still is the most important resource in Civ.

DeepO