02-05-2003 04:28									#1
	A club? Tournaments? Money? Suffering from ads?

I'm posting this here as you are most of the people I respect and am buddies with in the Civ community... and I needed someplace private.

And I don;t mind if Soren sees it too, if he ever lurks.

I had an old friend over last night, Jared, fantastically bright and creative guy, who used to play Civ2, and I started showing him a bunch of the stuff we've done, with AU and the demogames, etc., and described this team... f*ck it, I'll say it, we are some of the best players in the world..., the level of ongoing enthusiasm of at least several thousand (if not more) players out there, the endurance of Civ2, etc.

He reiterated something Amy has said a gajillion times: You've gotta be able to figure out how to make money off this!! (admit it, you've all thought it too!).

And, boom, I think he might of nailed it.

This is like ANY OTHER competitive game... there are ways to create clubs, leagues, tournaments, etc., that have a monetary element to them.

Computer games: Quake, Unreal, and god knows what other first-person shooters.

Traditional games: Chess, Go, Backgammon

Traditional money games: Poker, Bridge

Every sport you ever heard of.

You name it.

Jared (he's going to join here soon) then started going off...
* Firaxis' involvement?
* University / military / think tank involvement?
* Media coverage?
* Conventions?
* Merchandising?
* Sponsorships? (panag's right: we all have to get REALLY good at playing America!!! )

Then there's figuring out the money part:
* Club? Initiation? Dues?
* Tournament fees? (Jared's a tri-athlete... average cost of a triathlon? $330)
* Awards and prizes?
* What about people who just want to watch? Are there differentiated levels of access at different prices? For instance, I just realized this week that badams DOES NOT EVEN HAVE CIV3!!! He stated at MZO that he'd love to be in the GS forum...

And then of course the operational stuff... including where to have $password access to certain things, who does the heavy lifting, adjudication, administration, etc. Also, how does this (respectfully) relate to Apolyton, CFC, etc.?

There are other issues of course. Jared was amazed at the level of online multiplayer going on out there (and, duh, in here) for free... there obviously has to be a *significant* set of value propositions to break away from the free past. Also, clearly the time-extended nature of Civ needs to be addressed.

Jared's final point was that all of these kinds of organizations / affiliations start somewhere... and, going back to my pre-AU phrase, it's usually with the Best of the Best.

Thoughts? Let's remember, this is CIVILIZATION, one of the most enduring franchises in the competitive gaming world.

Oh, and btw, some massive street cred for Jared... as I described the demo games, and the new PTWII, I quizzed him: What comedian would a bunch of realllly good Civ players love?

Quote: "Eddie Izzard. It's THAT level of greatness! Shakespearian, I tell ya."

* Theseus prays: Vel sink your teeth into this, Vel sink your teeth into this, Vel sink your teeth into this...

	02-05-2003 04:43									#2
	Remove this text

wow

Is the online community big enough to make money out of? - most of the Quake 3 money has dried up IIRC.
Is the game relative enough to the real world to make money out of that way?
I can remember musing over how a PTW tournament could be structured IMO short games on tiny maps would be the best way to keep people interested. Then perhaps a 1 v 1 game for the final.

	02-05-2003 04:49									#3
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I don;t know.

Clearly, Civ doesn't have the popularity of FPSs... It's more like Chess or Bridge or even Poker.

But I think the demographics are different too, just as in the above two cases. Older, with more money.

	02-05-2003 05:03									#4
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The problem is, what could a group that charges money offer that people couldn't get for free from Apolyton, CivFanatics, or elsewhere? Even if we would find something not offered now, would we end up facing immediate not-for-profit competition from the web sites?

The one thing I can think of off the top of my head is a strategy guide. Such a guide probably wouldn't really contain anything new, but it would provide a nice, concise, place to find the most important information. Maybe, The Apolyton University Guide to Civilization 3 (probably with the name of the game in much bigger letters below the first part).

	02-05-2003 05:09									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Us, Nathan.

Playing us. Watching us. Watching the challengers. Access to the private fora.

You are right too... I know Vel made *some* money from his SMAC guide... what about a Civ3 guide written by the bunch of us?

As opposed to Prima!

	02-05-2003 05:40									#6
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I'm skeptical about the chances for making enough money from anything beyond a strategy guide to make it worthwhile (unless it's something we'd want to do anyhow), but I think anything else would need to start with the strategy guide. A good strategy guide could make us "the recognized experts" in a significantly wider part of the Civ 3 community, which would help build a foundation for any further pursuits that might be viable.

	02-05-2003 06:00									#7
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Not that I don't like the idea, or enthousiasm, but I doubt that I want to ever make money out of my Civ3 skills. Or better, scrap that, I want to, and I try to be involved already.

You see, Civ already sprung a money making effort, and I'm happy to be part of Vel's master plan. It's called Candle'Bre, and I'm certain that Vel would welcome all help he can get. AFAIK, the SMAC guide proceedings are going right into that project, as no amateur game can do without any funds. If there ever gets a tournament going, or a strategy guide in which I participate, my proceedings would most likely go straight into CB as well. But I doubt it we're talking about big money here, part of the fun of thinking on this game is that it is for fun, and nobody of us needs it to pay his rent (at least I hope not).

And even if I truely hope CB is going to be hugely succesful, I won't get rich out of it. Indy projects lack the big promotion 'commercial' games can work on, even if CB would be the best strat game of the year, it would still not generate enough sales as it would be known to die-hard fans only. I hope it will, but you have to be realistic about this, I know one of Vel's big dreams is being able to become a professional game developer, and I hope CB is going to give him this opportunity. But even if that wish doesn't become reality, at least the CB team is fun to be part of... even without possible pay later.

DeepO

	02-05-2003 06:27									#8
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The Two Johns (Carmack and Romero) were punk kids when they came up with the technology for Duke Nuke'em and Wolfenstein... and got lucky with the "first episodes for free" concept.

It is TOTALLY doable to introduce new concepts and make money from it.

I love the Candle'Bre concept too, but I think they are different and non-competitive ideas.

	02-05-2003 06:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I love the Candle'Bre concept too, but I think they are different and non-competitive ideas.

Well, they are competitive in that already GS is costing me most of my involvement in CB... and possible payment is not a true incentive for me. The problem is that anything in which you want to participate with possible money involved means you will need to spend time on it, doing sometimes not the most pleasant stuff, or thinking about things at a time in which you would prefer to relax and don't bend your mind on anything. Don't get me wrong, I too would appreciate a money making deal out of Civ other then CB, but I certainly will not volunteer to be any decisive part of it. I'd rather spend more time on CB.

I agree with Nathan, though, one of the first things needed to get any such effort going is the publishing of a strat guide. And perhaps I could be pursuaded to write part of that, but it will be a small part, and only one in which I find fun without any serious commitment. I know what effort can go into writing a book on a serious subject, as it is the goal of my current work, and I wrote a couple of theses before. It's not to be underestimated, and I'm sure Vel will agree on that

DeepO

	02-05-2003 07:43									#10
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....

















In three words....I like it!

I think that binding ourselves, or defining ourselves too closely with any singular game, however, is problematic (for a couple of reasons, outlined below):

First, there's longevity. True, Civ is a long-running, wildly successful franchise, BUT....every franchise has it's lifespan and as has been pointed out, Quake money is here and gone, for the most part. If we too strongly identify ourselves with a singular franchise (no matter how popular), we're dust the moment the franchise starts to wither.

Second is legality. Binding ourselves completely with a singular franchise and *profiting* from it may (or may not) raise the eyebrows of the publisher's legal department (and we have all witnessed how twitchy Infogreed has been wrt the Civ franchise).

The solution here though, is not to scrap the idea itself, which is an excellent one, but to broaden its base and core emphasis to such a degree that it is both more inclusive and too big to have any legal entanglements....for example, we could simply call it "The War College" (to borrow the name of our informal group here), and set ourselves up as the masters of turn based strategy in general, and then proceed to list the sum-total of games we cover and cater to (which of course, Civ3 would figure prominently into).

This is more difficult because of the time requirement involved to achieve true mastery in multiple titles, but carries with it numerous advantages, not the least of which is vastly broadening the base of popular support such an undertaking would have, and if it is to be a "for profit" venture, then the larger the potential market, the better (note that there are diminishing returns here....make it too all-inclusive and the message and specialness gets lost, so there's a line to be walked, for sure).

Transitioning from free to pay, and selling the idea to the general public, is not all that difficult, IMO.

"Free" MP works because there's no prize money involved. It's all just for the love of the game.

Host a game with a $100 prize for the winning team, and charge $25 bucks per team entry, however, and I guarantee you you'll fill the game to capacity.....and of course, that's just using humble numbers for the example. A $10,000 prize is not out of the question, with corporate sponsorships and higher entry fees....

Let's face it....if we broaden the support base of the idea to be more inclusive, provide a secure website for updates, player posts, a "galley" for those who want to observe and soak up some advanced lessons of play, gain access to mods, essays, and enhancements offered by other members of the site, and changed a nominal fee for it all, we'd get takers.

Say we make it inclusive enough to tempt 5,000 fans of various games to our little corner of the world wide web, and we charged a paltry buck a month for unrestricted access (which would include, among other things, lifetime upgrades to the strategy guides written by various members and organizers, given in downloadable PDF format).....5k a month is a pretty decent haul, and that's not even taking sponsorships and event fees into consideration.

A good though. A good thought indeed....

-=Vel=-

	02-05-2003 07:53									#11
	Remove this text

More thoughts:

Much as I am jazzed about the idea, because of my involvement with CB, and getting Velocigames, Inc. on a paying basis, I lack the time to truly do the idea justice, but I will put the following proposal on the table:

I already have a corporate structure set up. A Nevada Corporation, bearing the name Velocigames, Inc., so if the organizers of this project are looking for a corporate umbrella to call home, then I offer the name of our tiny outfit to that task, and here is as good a place as any to begin discussing the particulars of that.

Secondly, if the idea is pursued, but the decision is made not to use the VG corporate umbrella to get things rolling, I'd like to offer VG as your first corporate sponsor. True, we have no income to speak of at present (we have a smidgeon, because I have "sold" the rights to my three published books to the company, so that's providing at least a bit of black ink for the company), so the sponsorship might not mean much, except for the fact that once you have one sponsor, it's a bit easier to get others....

Just some more late night thoughts....

-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 02-05-2003 at 07:58

	02-05-2003 08:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm really not familiar with legal fights or threats over the Civilization franchise other than the fight over Activision's use of the "Civilization" name for the original Call to Power. (And that one, I understand 100%, since the use of "Civilization" in the name makes it easy to mistake it for being part of Sid's Civ franchise rather than something developed independently.) One would think that in a nation with constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech and of the press, companies could not interfere with independent strategy guides, conventions, and so forth as long as they make it clear that they are independent. But sometimes the way courts interpret the Constitution gets downright weird.

	02-05-2003 09:24									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ahhhh, Vel gets bitten by the bug.

Much like Candle'Bre, this'll take some time to flesh out.

I ain't gonna let it go.

And yes, Vel, you hit the nail on the head... as a starting point, could we do a pay-to-play tournament, starting with names such as ours, and attract a meaningful base?

Hell yes.

	02-05-2003 12:54									#14
	Put an end to popups!

You do realize that if we would enter such a tournament, we become the target to beat, certainly if we would do good in the 'poly one? That's the price you have to pay: you probably will never be able to take the highest price because of being known... in itself not a bad thing, if you would get money each time someone enters

Maybe one site to check out, as it is essentially a pay-to-play site (there are more of these, I know. But there are some interesting ideas here):
http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content...nner/index.html
I've been registered over a year there, as I wanted a way of turning my former minesweeper skills into something good. However, because you gain experience each time you win, and the system is build so that players with roughly equal skill oppose each other, eventually you're balance starts to become negative.
Now, I won in total something like 50$ on various games, and can't play anymore because my profit would go up in smoke in entering money... Too many good players present.

Such a system, altough being fair, will mean that if you don't just do it for fun, you get disadvantaged once you're ranked too high. Which in itself mean that only very few people actually make money, and if you continue to play, only the organizers gain. But, there is a large drop-out, I played for a month or so (a couple of hours a day), and now never enter anymore. And I'm top ranked in all games I played in.
(BTW, the ranking system has been taken into some kind of new formula it seems, previously you could just see how you accumulate points. if anyone is interested, I think I still know how they did it so that it would profit them more then the players)

DeepO

	02-05-2003 13:21									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Secondly, if the idea is pursued, but the decision is made not to use the VG corporate umbrella to get things rolling, I'd like to offer VG as your first corporate sponsor. True, we have no income to speak of at present , so the sponsorship might not mean much, except for the fact that once you have one sponsor, it's a bit easier to get others....

Well, that sure is mighty generous of you there, buddy! How kind of you to volunteer to receive some free advertising - such a noble spirit of sacrifice!.

quote: Host a game with a $100 prize for the winning team, and charge $25 bucks per team entry, however, and I guarantee you you'll fill the game to capacity.....and of course, that's just using humble numbers for the example. A $10,000 prize is not out of the question, with corporate sponsorships and higher entry fees....

What you have to remember is that what you charge on the door is only the beginning of the costs people will have to pay to attend. I don't think the Civ community is big enough to attract a large number of visitors from any one city (hell, few gaming communities would be). This means that people would have to travel to the venue, either by plane or train. If the event is all-day, or spread across a couple of days, then they'll have to book a hotel room too.
Suddenly that small entrance fee is turning into a lot of money.

IMHO an idea such as this could only realistically suceed with major backing from the game developers (Firaxis in this instance, others if you want to include other games - which you should). They're the only ones with the money, publicity and industry clout to pull it off. I also think that people would be FAR more likely to attend an 'official' event.

quote: I'm skeptical about the chances for making enough money from anything beyond a strategy guide to make it worthwhile (unless it's something we'd want to do anyhow), but I think anything else would need to start with the strategy guide. A good strategy guide could make us "the recognized experts" in a significantly wider part of the Civ 3 community, which would help build a foundation for any further pursuits that might be viable.

I'm totally with Nathan on this one. If you can't get Firaxis interested in organising/funding an event, then this is the best way to get a bit of cash and make yourself famous enough to get the leverage to pursue wider ideas.

	02-05-2003 13:30									#16
	Got spare money?

Never even considered that... I thought the tournaments were going to be on-line. I was already wondering how you could get people interested enough to play up to 10 PBEM games before getting their prize

If a $25 (VIP) entering fee would include transport to an event, you can count me in. So far, I never visited the states before

DeepO

	02-05-2003 13:42									#17
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Come to think of it, didn't this already happen with CtP? Alva, maybe you know more about this, but I've got a friend (well, a friend of a friend of a friend. Don't even know his name, but have seen him a couple of times) who was into telenet tournaments for CtP. I don't have time right now to find the site, and I'm sure it was Dutch, but maybe you know what I mean, I saw you were active in some telenet gaming community earlier.

Heh, you may even know who I'm talking about, for a long time he was #1 on the CtP tournament, but last time I saw him they beat him, and he was angry to be #2 (this was years ago, though)

DeepO

	02-05-2003 14:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Never even considered that... I thought the tournaments were going to be on-line. I was already wondering how you could get people interested enough to play up to 10 PBEM games before getting their prize

If playing MP Civ in real-time actually worked reliably it would be possible to play online tournaments for money. Lots of RTS games have such things.
However, I don't think the system is reliable enough for Civ. bah!

So, yeah, it would have to be an attendance event with networked PC linked directly to each other. Hopefully that would be actually playable.

	02-05-2003 16:08									#19
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Actually, some former class mates of mine started a company to host networked tournament games, most of them FPS and race games (also because one of them was one of the best F2000 players in the world). If I remember the stories correctly, these events were very cumbersome to organize, and I doubt they made much money out of it... but they had loads of fun, that's for sure

DeepO

	02-05-2003 18:29									#20
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quote: Come to think of it, didn't this already happen with CtP? Alva, maybe you know more about this,

Nope, can't help you there
-
Interesting thread.

	02-05-2003 18:56									#21
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Well, I searched for it, but it has been too long, it seems. maybe my memory is faulty, but I was quite sure it was part of the telenet game community.

Anyway, while searching, I found a URL with a tournament and league... it was the only one I found with a fast google.
http://www.the-battlefield.com/inde...3main&game=civ3
(not paid, and not terribly active either, it seems)

DeepO