02-05-2003 13:55									#1
	Turn 48 Tired of ads?

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- not researching.
- Luxury Slider at 0%
- 68 gold cash, would be -1 gpt if science to 100%.

Urgent questions & tasks:
FAM: Negotiations with CFC for the wheel?
FAM: Exchanges with CDG and GCA should be going through (expecting their techs); need to find out CDG's next tech.
MoL: Need a name for Warrior8.
SCI: What do we research? Map Making if Writing acquired? Or do we keep research at zero and rack up some cash pending research agreements?

Unit movement & actions:
N1 'MerZenary' to move 8 (N) ??
N2 'Mao' to attack the barb, if possible; if barb @ horse tile, move SW (1), otherwise move W (4)
W2 'BigFree' fortified
W3 'Alva' to move 2 (S) ??
W4 'Theseus' to move W (4) to put up the Tripscreen (then skip two turns, healing) ??
W5 'BFW' to move 8 (N) ?? then 3 (SE) and back to the neck ??
W6 'Hagbart' fortified in Apolyton
W7 'WhiteBandit' to attack if barb @ 3 (SE), remain fortified if barb @ 1 (SW), and move 2 (S) otherwise ??
W8 '???' to fortify in Apolyton ??

Economy:
Apolyton building settler (shuold be ready on the next turn).
Mingapulco building worker.
Banatopia building granary.

WF:
Apolyton to 2, 3, 33, 9 (no changes)
Mingapulco to 6, 99 (no changes)
Bananatopia at 9 (no changes)

Workers
Worker Dan move 8 (N).
Worker 2 rename 'Monkee' to road Apolyton 9.
Worker 3 to mine Mingapulco 9

Diplomacy:
CDG: NAP in effect. Tech swap in effect; we give WC and wheel for IW.
CFC: Negotiating...
GCA: NAP in effect (fm Turn 29). Tech swap in effect; we give WC and wheel for writing.

Comment, please, many "plans" (especially those marked with '??') are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.
---

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results.

----

	02-05-2003 17:20									#2
	Put an end to popups!

The NAP with CDG is due to expire on turn 51. We are within the 5 turn renegotiation window that was put in the NAP.

CDG has not contacted us about this. I think we should let them approach us after the Tech trade deal goes through. We can judge their mood by their offer for renegotating the deal; I think they might bring up WBigFree and his removal since they may think we are perfectly fine with him being there.

GCA has stated, in no uncertain terms, that they'd like WBigFree to go home, CDG probably feels the same. Let them ask us, maybe we can get something out of it if it is that important to them. :evil&opportunistic: If they offer us gold great, if they offer us nothing but demand that he leave, I say we should think about leaving him there. Even if it's just a Warrior and not a real threat to GCA or CDG, it can be a great spy. What if in the near future another Civ comes along in a Galley! Instant contact!

I'd like to hear more thoughts and ideas on this.

As for all the movements of units; we have so many units close to CDG territory that it is no big deal to send 'Mao' a little further away from Apolyton, we have a great early warning sysytem in place right now. If we can get both NM's up to 'elite' sooner, we should go for it, we are not taking any chances by moving 'Mao' up to 6 tiles from Apolyton with the current arrangement of scouting Warriors.

Where's the new Settler to go? There's been debate recently, but I don't know if anything has been concretely decided. I say 4-4-4 from Apolyton, especially considering the Horsies that just appeared South of that location!

	02-05-2003 20:36									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Settler is all queued up to found a city on the Incense. I see no reason to change this plan right now, since this city will be able to benefit from improved Grasslands, while the site at 444 will not (for the moment). That said, 444 should be our fifth city. After that, we're going to jump into the Jungle.

I have not been following the diplo side of this game too closely in the past few turns, but I just want to say that we need Iron Working ASAP. Our future economic plans depend on knowing where the ore lies.

As I mentioned before, I'll be offline at least until Monday, and I will not be able to do anything requiring Civ until next Friday (which means MoI recommendations). I'm hoping E_T or BigFurryMonster will step in, but they're very quiet these days.

	02-05-2003 20:42									#4
	Got spare money?

Important note regarding our next Settler!

Please look at the queue for Turns 49 and 50 carefully, since they require some weird maneuvering. In order to get the Settler to the Incense on the same turn that it is constructed, the Worker needs to be ordered to Road To the Incense. On the turn that the Settler is done, order the Settler to Wait (the W command), and move all other units. The Road should be complete during the turn instead of at the end, allowing the Settler to zip to the Incense.

This is a little trick I learned from the Strat forum (an awesome place).


Dominae

	02-05-2003 22:21									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Bah... road-to exploit...

	02-05-2003 23:11									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually, I was going to ask...

Is the Road-to exploit considered kosher for these games? The expolit is not using Road-to itself, it is using Road-to and waiting for the road to complete on the final turn so that troops can use the newly constructed road a turn early.

Opinions?

	02-05-2003 23:38									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

I wasn't going to say anything, but since someone else brought it up, I'm not really comfortable with it..... it IS an exploit, or at the very least convenient maniupulation of a game bug.

I'm overly sensitive to that kind of thing though, as the cheating investigation admin for the Myleague ladder.

I could go along with it either way, but I'm not overly thrilled about it. Sorry.

	02-05-2003 23:45									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I wasn't going to say anything, but since someone else brought it up, I'm not really comfortable with it..... it IS an exploit, or at the very least convenient maniupulation of a game bug. I'm overly sensitive to that kind of thing though, as the cheating investigation admin for the Myleague ladder. I could go along with it either way, but I'm not overly thrilled about it. Sorry.

I agree...

	02-05-2003 23:54									#9
	Suffering from ads?

Never heard of it before, I admit... but thinking about it, it sounds not kosher to me. I seriously doubt it's supposed to work this way. I mean - it goes against the general logic and mechanics of the game, doesn't it? Tile improvements are supposed to finish AFTER all units move...

I would not use it.

	03-05-2003 03:21									#11
	Got spare money?

The Road "exploit" isn't cheating, it's just having your units wait until the worker's finished his turn, then using the newly built road. It's another feature of a game that's already given us the shaft in the diplomacy department by making the offers happen before the tech is finished.

This is a "feature" that every team uses and will use. I see no problem with it at all.

--Togas

	03-05-2003 03:26									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And the ability to load up PBEM games while in the middle of another game, giving you a nice view of the map is also a "game feature."

	03-05-2003 03:27									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Important note regarding our next Settler! Please look at the queue for Turns 49 and 50 carefully, since they require some weird maneuvering. In order to get the Settler to the Incense on the same turn that it is constructed, the Worker needs to be ordered to Road To the Incense. On the turn that the Settler is done, order the Settler to Wait (the W command), and move all other units. The Road should be complete during the turn instead of at the end, allowing the Settler to zip to the Incense. This is a little trick I learned from the Strat forum (an awesome place). Dominae

We've come across this in our PBEM game, and have pretty much agreed that it shouldn't be used to gain an advantage. However, all teams in the ISDG have agreed to play the game as is. If IFE was still allowed, do you think other teams would be using this later on in the game?? I support the use of Road-To in this situation.

	03-05-2003 16:10									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Togas The Road "exploit" isn't cheating, it's just having your units wait until the worker's finished his turn, then using the newly built road. It's another feature of a game.

Right. It isn't a bug, but a feature. Since the worker actually knows where he's roading to, he can work more efficiently and therefore complete his work one turn earlier.

	03-05-2003 17:34									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A tricky issue. This is a minor (not bug, nor feature) EFFECT. I take it there is no question of taking this up in the UN? If not, I would err on the side of allowing it, as to my knowledge there has been no indication from Firaxis that this is a bug, that it is unintentional nor to be changed in patches.

	03-05-2003 18:53									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, I was going to ask... Is the Road-to exploit considered kosher for these games? The expolit is not using Road-to itself, it is using Road-to and waiting for the road to complete on the final turn so that troops can use the newly constructed road a turn early. Opinions?

hi ,

why not

have a nice day

and dont some of you jump me now for saying i speculate "cheating" , ....

	03-05-2003 19:46									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Can't we just ask Soren? Has he done any work for PTW? He might know.
If he says that this is intentional and will not be "fixed" in future patches, we can go on using it. If he says that this is unintentional, I suggest that we bring this to the UN and vote to prohibit the use of this bug/exploit/undocumented feature. Otherwise, it gives us an unfair advantage.

	03-05-2003 22:59									#18
	Tired of ads?

It's an exploit in SP for sure, because the AI would never cycle through units waiting for the worker's turn to complete the road and then go back and move the units.

The question is whether it is an expolit in MP. If all players/teams know about it and can therefore use it, it becomes a matter of taste. I sense that opinion overall is split. The only way to settle it is to bring the issue into the open at the UN and perhaps in the PtWDG forum.

	04-05-2003 01:25									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Warrior 8= "not panag" ...
unless he has a problem with that

	04-05-2003 03:32									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, CDG sat on the save for near 24 hours... must have been some decision or other to make. I wonder what that could involve. Something to do with whether or not to follow through with the treaty or not, perhaps?

Anyways, CGN should send to us soon. I will be home in about 5 hours so we shall see...

	04-05-2003 04:35									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The question for CDG might have been whether or not to upgrade Warrior's to Immortals and then whom to attack with them?!

	04-05-2003 04:47									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I couldn't wait. I blasted home to check on the save. I'll be gone for a few hours, then be back to play the turn.

Oh, just in case you want to know, the trades went through. We have writing and iron working. We can see 4 iron deposits, none of them favouring CDG. MM in 23 if we max the slider.

We have the wheel and writing available for trade to CFC.

red circles are iron deposits.

	04-05-2003 05:36									#23
	Remove this text

WOOT YEAH!!!!

With that mani Iron's, maybe CDG doesn't have access! *BigFree prays*

	04-05-2003 06:01									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If it's not too much to buy an embassy let's do it. It'll let us know if CDG has iron immediately and then allow us to finish scouting the remaining dark areas around their capital for possible other sources.

The sooner we know if they have iron or not, the sooner we can make a proper decision on what to do with CDG.

--Togas

	04-05-2003 06:01									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Writing trade to CFC is a no-no; still a no-trade clause for some turns to go yet. But we can tell them that if they can wait we will make a beter deal than either CDG or GCA. Or we can have CFC lie about where they got it (goodie hut!)

	04-05-2003 06:09									#26
	Support Apolyton

Lets put a Warrio (eventually a city) on the South East Iron and a NM on the West one, the one up North is cool for now, though a road towards it should be started soon.

I wouldn't be surprised to find CDG units on either of the two Irons within their reach; but maybe they didn't have any units near those spots, so a race to them is in order?!

	04-05-2003 06:09									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

They would get the Wheel eons before they would get Writing from a hut.

In any case... wow. Resource situation is excellent... only way it could be better is if those resources were already inside our borders.

I think we need to get an NM on top of that iron to our west ASAP. If we can maintain control over all of the iron sources in the area, then CDG doesn't have a chance against us, and we don't have to worry about them.

I also support the idea of building an embassy. Even though it won't reveal all of the CDG land, it will show enough where we'll have a good idea of where they stand, along with giving WB a direction to head.

	04-05-2003 10:15									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Exchanges with CDG and GCA went through. We have writing and iron working.

Actions:

Research increased to 100%. Set to map making (23).

Warrior 8 renamed 'not_panag' the Warrior
Worker 1 renmaed 'Worker Dan'
Worker 2 renmaed 'Worker Monkee'
Worker 3 renamed "Worker panag'

Unit movement & actions:
N1 'MerZenary' moves 8 (N)
N2 'Mao' attacks the Cimmerian warrior at 4 (W). Dead barb, no hits taken.
W2 'BigFree' fortified
W3 'Alva' moves 4 (W)
W4 'Theseus' moves 4 (W)
W5 'BFW' moves 2 (S)
W6 'Hagbart' fortified in Apolyton
W7 'WhiteBandit' moves 2 (S)
W8 'not_panag' fortifies in Apolyton

Economy:
Apolyton building settler (1)
Mingapulco building worker (1)
Banatopia building granary (19)

WF:
Apolyton to 2, 3, 33, 9 (no changes)
Mingapulco to 6, 99 (no changes)
Bananatopia at 9 (no changes)

Workers
Worker 'Dan' move 8 (N)
Worker 'Monkee' begins Road-to to the incense (2) (we do not have to use the exploit)
Worker 'panag' begins mine (3)

Last edited by notyoueither on 04-05-2003 at 10:35

	04-05-2003 19:02									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Warrior 8= "not panag" ... unless he has a problem with that

hi ,


that depends if people make the same fuss about it as a couple days , ...


i want to be a NM

have a nice day


actually being a worker might not be bad , .... building our nation