02-05-2003 15:02									#1
	Government Changes - a proposal Remove this text

I know I should bring this up in Creation, but that forum is a LOT less active than this one. Plus, half the stuff talked about in here is changes, etc.

An idea was brought up a while ago, the concept of EDICTS. These would be sort of like laws. They'd be small wonders that are government-specific and have zero shield cost. However, they would have upsides and downsides. I've thought about this and developed it further, so I think I have a way to reform the way govs work in civ3 (in a mod, not a patch). I also have an idea for two governments that could be added, and I'm thinking that Republic should be removed. Also, the Palace is renamed to the Capitol. Each gov (except Despotism) has a "capitol building" (small wonder) that is required for the edicts (i.e., they can only be built there), provides its own special benefits, and requires the Capitol to be built.

First, because of these changes, Dictatorship will be COMPLETELY worthless. It will be EXTREMELY disadvantageous to put off a revolt.

Changes:

Monarchy

Requires: Feudalism

War Weariness: Low

Hurrying: Forced labor

Corruption: Somewhere near the middle, leaning towards worse.

Bonuses: Standard trade bonus.

Capitol Building: King's Court, allows Espionage.

Edicts:

Consitution - not sure what this does yet (maybe 1 happy citizen in every city, maybe a corruption thing). Either requires upkeep or gives some other penalty (can't think of anything else, though, except happiness ). Requires The Republic.

Nobility - Treasury earns 5%.

Feudalism - pays upkeep for all trade installations, adds one sad face to every city.

The idea of Monarchy is gold. It can't handle large empires, but it can do espionage long before anyone else can. It also should have the money to do that espionage. The addition of the Constitution allows for a "Constitutional Monarchy" without adding a gov and requiring a revolt.

Maritime Society (needs a new name?)

Requires: Map Making

War Weariness: High

Hurrying: Paid labor

Corruption: Somewhere near the middle, leaning towards worse

Bonuses: none

Capitol Building: Seaport, +1 trade in each trade-producing tile (i.e., the Colossus), must be built on a coastal tile.

Unique buildings:

Port - reduces Corruption, builds veteran ships, requrires Harbor, requires upkeep.

Edicts:

Official Cartographer - +1 ships movement, requires SIGNIFICANT upkeep.

Free Traders - acts as Great Library, requires Official Cartographer.

Maritime Society is supposed to be a sort of "scientific" government; at least that's its strong point. Both of its edicts, ESPECIALLY Free Traders, give it a big science boost. They also both need name changes . It can even manage a few overseas colonies because of the Port. The upkeep on the Cartographer will be enough to keep the Free Traders from being too powerful. However, it doesn't like war. Sort of like the abolished Republic, but with some special quirks.

Empire

Requires: Monarchy (renamed to Empire)

War Weariness: Low

Hurrying: Paid labor

Corruption: Minimal

Bonuses: none

Capitol Building: Palace, double combat strenght versus barbarians.

Unique Small Wonders:

Regional Capitol - there are a very high number of levels of this, enough that you can never build them all. The first one requires 2 armies. The next one requires 3 armies, the next one 4, and so on. Each is a Forbidden Palace. Since you need 4 cities per army, you can have a maximum of one regional capitol every 4 cities.

Edicts:

Legions - allows the production of armies without a leader, requires significant upkeep.

Empire is designed for, guess what, an Empire. It is the only government, except maybe Democracy, that can control a large territory without worrying overmuch about corruption. The Regional Capitol is so powerful that Empire only gets one other special thing, the Legions. They are necessary for the Regional Capitol system to work. It is also realistic, as the Romans managed to hold their empire only because of their massive legions.

Communism

Requires: Communism

War Weariness: none

Hurrying: Forced labor

Corruption: Communal

Bonuses: Elite Spies

Capitol Building: Politbureau, double combat strenght versus barbarians.

Unique Small Wonders:

KGB - Allows espionage, acts as Great Library, requires EXTREME upkeep.

Edicts:

The Draft - build larger armies, build armies without leader, 1 unhappy face in each city.

Modernization - half upgrade cost, creates a communism-dependent "improvement" in each city that adds 8 pollution.

Communism may seem immensely powerful now, but their enormous corruption coupled with the high cost of the KGB will make it difficult for them to support it (by extreme, I mean 20, 30, maybe even 50 or 60 gpt). It will allow them to sort of keep up in tech, but they're still hurting. They do have the larger armies though, and effectively the Legions edict, but for free.

Democracy

Requires: Democracy

War Weariness: High

Hurrying: Paid Labor

Corruption: Minimal

Bonuses: Standard Trade Bonus

Capitol Building: Congress, has no effect. (I wish there was a check "increases corruption" )

Edicts:

Universal Sufferage - +2 happy citizens each city.

Free Market - Pays maintenance for all trade installations

The Patent - 2 free techs

	02-05-2003 18:30									#2
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Good ideas.
I think some actual edicts / capitol buildings could suffer from nitpicking, but the core idea (using costless gov-specific buildings as "edicts") is very good
Did you test your ideas already ?

	02-05-2003 22:52									#3
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Didn't I bring up the "Edict" concept earlier in the "Creation" forum?

Basically it's an "Invisible Improvement" meaning that it acts as an improvement but has no graphic. It represents the passing of a certain law. I've more detail on this in my "Some Mod Ideas" thread. I had a whole bunch of suggestions for what "Edicts" should be for each government (such as "Cult of Personality" ), but I'm a bit too lazy to post them here.

	03-05-2003 02:33									#4
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Great ideas- and I like how they balance out. More people need to check out the CIV future forum, keep it moving.

Monarchy:

quote: Consitution - not sure what this does yet (maybe 1 happy citizen in every city, maybe a corruption thing). Either requires upkeep or gives some other penalty (can't think of anything else, though, except happiness ).

Howabout a shield penalty? Or maybe an increase in war wearyness.

Communism:

quote: The Draft - build larger armies, build armies without leader, 1 unhappy face in each city.

This seems to be a large unbalancerBuilding larger armies without the option of building the pentagon

Democracy:

quote: Capitol Building: Congress, has no effect. (I wish there was a check "increases corruption" )

lol...
Democracy seems to be the weakest of the governments. Maybe an increase in science production or (for civ future) an increase in rail movement.

	03-05-2003 03:05									#5
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Azeem - yes, I mentioned someone else thought of it.

MattH:

It isn't possible to apply a shield penalty or a war weariness penalty, unfortunately . The only possible penalties (for a building) are pollution, happiness, and upkeep.

The Pentagon will probably be removed, along with the Universal Suffrage wonder, and the Colossus, and the Great Library (probably), and many of the other wonders and small wonders that are redundant with the edicts or unique capitols.

Democracy isn't actually the weakest. It is the only civ to not only have the standard trade bonus, but also the lowest possible corruption. Plus, almost as soon as you switch to Democracy (for the first time), you get 2 free techs, and you don't have to pay for trade buildings, and you have a nice happiness bonus.

EDIT: oh, and Spiffor, no I haven't tested this. I'm too lazy to actually play the mod

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 03-05-2003 at 03:14

	04-05-2003 04:14									#6
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Edicts, huh? Sounds like you want a cross between Civ and Tropico

	04-05-2003 20:24									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

just a question: you think constitutional monarchy should require a vote.

i would think less so because a lot of the constitutional monarchies we have now slowly ceded power, so they could still have some (like England), while the ones that had a revolt usually led to the end of the monarchy (like france). theyre are obvious exceptions, however. so its your choice what you want to put in i guess...

	04-05-2003 20:43									#8
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It doesn't require a "vote". You just build it, and it makes some people happy.

Unfortunately, I've had a LOT of trouble getting this to work, because I keep getting error messages about splash popups

	05-05-2003 02:39									#9
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It doesn't require a "vote". You just build it, and it makes some people happy. Unfortunately, I've had a LOT of trouble getting this to work, because I keep getting error messages about splash popups

I liking far splash

i liking the option of vote make more realism in it...

oh by tat way

Luke i am your dad

	05-05-2003 03:33									#10
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You will flame me for saying this but... GIVE US SOCIAL ENGINEERING!!!

Any way to make the small wonders work in a SE way? Replacing each others like powerplants?

	05-05-2003 05:01									#11
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Nope. There's only one "replace" field.

Plus, it's very difficult to find NEW bonuses.

	05-05-2003 21:37									#12
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They really should allow you to "replace" certain improvements with other improvements... That would involve more strategy in developing cities so you would need to decide whether your city will "specialize" in one thing or another.

For example, you would have the option of building an improvement that increases trade or an improvement that increases shield production, but they both replace the same improvement, thus you would need to decide which to build.

	05-05-2003 23:53									#13
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quote: It isn't possible to apply a shield penalty or a war weariness penalty, unfortunately.

I haven't lost all my fath in firaxis yet... maybe they'll add something like that in an expansion.

Bongohead- are you just crotch with a new nickname, or am I totally missing the signifigance of that picture?

	06-05-2003 03:04									#14
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Matt - Ming's already taken care of him

	06-05-2003 05:00									#15
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Great Ideas.

There were and perhaps still are problems with goverment-specific wonders. Under 1.14f, goverment-specific FPs certainly didn't stop working. That isn't going to help balance Regional Capitols. I'd give them with at least a quadratic in the no. of armies anyway.

Personally I've added a late industrial age goverment like a Democracy with free improvements and communal corruption. The idea being that I would never switch that late but the AIs would often gain from it. Never tried that mod though, of course.

Fixing the goverment system would make Religious a much better trait. I think I'm in the minority in thinking it's the worst trait at the moment.

The KGB and the Patent are also a bit powerful. You may actually succeed in giving a player a genuine choice between warmongering and building.

Balancing the map size with large upkeeps and small wonder costs in general is not easy.