03-05-2003 02:05									#1
	DM City placement poll Part II Support Apolyton

BigFree's Plan



Donegeal's Loose Plan


Donegeal's Tight Map


These are the doninate plan that came from the City placement disscussion thread.

The options:
1) BigFree's Plan
2) Donegeal's Loose Plan
3) Donegeal's Tight Plan
4) Not sure yet, but lets build Red/D2 first as its the same in all three plans and we can continue to discuss.
5) banana/abstain

[Edit]
Oh yeah, there is no time limit to this poll so you can wait to vote until right before we have to start moving our first settler.

Last edited by Donegeal on 03-05-2003 at 02:55

	03-05-2003 02:47									#2
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Ok, enough with the non-biased posting...

IMHO, BF's plan looks good on paper (ok, computer screen) but it would put us in a REXing war against an AI on Deity. We can't win at that. The Ottomans would get pissed at us for taking the good land early (which would be corrupt and at this early stage, every shield/commerce counts) and attack us while we are still REXing. The AI has a tremendous production bonus at this level and would then walk all over us as we would be unprepared.

My loose plan, although looking very symetrical, has numerous flaws in it. The number one flaw is corruption. The Red city and Asgard would loose nothing to corruption, but Yellow, Blue and Green would all loose one shield. One shield might not sound like a lot, but the one shield also means the difference between producing units in 3 turns as opposed to 4 turns.

My tight plan has only one little flaw. A unit built in Red would have its third move on a road right in front of a river, making the next move crossing the river. I see this as a minor problem for two reasons. One, I don't even think we will have time to build it and Two, If we did, I see it as producing only Spearmen (one every four turns) that we use to defend our cities.
This plan also has MANY bonuses. Every city has population control to ensure that none of them go into disorder (which is quiet the problem at Deity). It allows MAXIMUM production and commerce from our starting position and has ABSOLUTLY NO CORRUPTION!!! It has the least amount of needed tile improvements and of all of these, only the road N of Asgard does not get used (its on a non-bonus grass) where as there are two unsed in my loose plan and an unknown number in BF's (but higher than either of my plans). Almost every tile used is a river tile (and almost every river tile is used). This allows us to get the most from our river. We will have high commerce and high production in a short time and with little tile improvements. We also must remember that once the needed tile improvements are built, we will be able to road all our used river tiles further increasing our commerce by 3 per city.

The idea to "Just build Red/D2 first" was added because it seemed popular. I must say that although this might seem like a good idea, it is by far the least beneificial city we could build due to lack of adequate production. It would only produce a max of 6 shields (which would get us a Sword every 5 turns) but would require an additional mine to be built. With out the mine, it has 5 shields and would produce a Spear in 4 turns. My main argument against this idea is that the other cities would be FAR more useful. My second argument is that if the city were built one tile to the SE, it could be a permenant city (but would be further harrassed by corruption at this point in the game).

	03-05-2003 03:00									#3
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I like Donegeal's tight plan for two reasons: Efficiency in the early game & its easier to weed out a couple of the cities to get cities in the area that are useful in the later game later without wasting good terrain in the process.

	03-05-2003 03:19									#4
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With one worker, it would take 39 more turns to complete the needed tile improvements listed in the Tight plan (21 if we had two). Our one worker should be able to complete all the needed jobs relatively close to the amount of time it would take to build the three main cities (Yellow, Green and Blue). With BF's plan, it would require more time and more workers.

	03-05-2003 03:53									#5
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For the couple who voted for BF's plan, could you post why you think it is better than the Tight one?

	03-05-2003 04:44									#6
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I haven't voted yet...

The reason I like my plan better is that it allows for future growth after the archer rush without having to disband cites that would impede it later in the game. Plus if the Archer rush fails or comes to a stalemate we have claimed more land for ourselves; if need be we can back-fill at this time for a push at a Sword rush, but at least we have the land in which to do it. The AI's will be REXing like rabbits, we need to ensure that we get a large enough portion of land in our control before the AI's cultural border's creep up to ours.

	03-05-2003 08:56									#7
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I need to think about this some... Donegeal's tight plan looks way to crowded to my eyes, unless you planed to abandon some of those cities in the future. Same with the loose one.

If we are to acutally keep these first cities, BigFree's looks best. But, like I said, I'll think about it...

	03-05-2003 09:46									#8
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I would especially appreciate input from everyone who has played this type of game before. Diety, 24 civs, etc.

I have just started a SP game with approx. our settings - I'm completely surrounded by AIs and I don't think I survive long - Diety is new to me.

So we need input from any experienced with Diety - how much time do we have before we can expect an assault?

Also, in my SP game, the AIs are rexing like mad, taking all the land - I doubt I'll get to 4 cities - there won't be a spot left.

	03-05-2003 12:15									#9
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In this case, I have no experience with Deity, so all I can do as a citizen of this nation is rely on the advice of the experts and assess each plan on its own merits.

My own feeling (uninformed as it is!) is that war is inevitably THE single path we must take in a Deity game, from impressions I have read in the posts of the best - the Arrians, the Theseuses, the Catts, the Dominaes and the Sir Ralphs amongst others. Thus I feel that, especially with a civ right next to us like that, Archer rush and Archer rush ASAP is the way to go.

Thus I vote for don's tight plan. As for first city, I don't want the red one as it is indeed a poor producer. A better production city in the tight plan would be what I like - blue city and the cows with the hope that there are more in the black there.

	03-05-2003 12:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree The reason I like my plan better is that it allows for future growth after the archer rush without having to disband cites that would impede it later in the game

quote: Originally posted by Octavian X Donegeal's tight plan looks way to crowded to my eyes, unless you planed to abandon some of those cities in the future

Yes, I have thought of this as well; but looking at your plan, Asgard has only 4 tiles that are left all to its self. Sounds pretty crowded to me. And yes, cities will need to get moved later when we have breathing room with which ever plan we go for.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree if need be we can back-fill at this time for a push at a Sword rush

That the beauty of the Tight plan, it works just as well for a Sword rush as it does for an Archer rush. We also have to face the fact that that the only place we are going to have even a chance at Iron is in the mountians to our NE (a smaller chance in the hills to the SW of the yellow city).

We have to face the facts here. The AI needs half of everything we need (I think that is what they get) and they are going to REX quickly and see that their military outnumbers us 3 or 4 to 1 and they are going to come. We CANNOT even waste valuable turns waiting for our settlers to get where they are going.

	03-05-2003 13:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt A better production city in the tight plan would be what I like - blue city and the cows with the hope that there are more in the black there.

Well, our borders expand in two turns. Maybe we should wait to see what is under there.

	03-05-2003 19:01									#12
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hi ,

donegeal's loose map with a couple modifications

have a nice day

Last edited by panag on 03-05-2003 at 22:17

	03-05-2003 21:09									#13
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Don's tight, but lets look at moving the yellow south one so it is on the river at the mouth. Thay way it can be made a perminant city if we like and will have access to the shielded grassland.

	03-05-2003 21:18									#14
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Looking at the names and the city placements:

"Donegeal's Loose plan", is actually tight spacing. Bigfree's is in the same category.

"Donegeal's Tight plan", is actually Borg spacing.

	04-05-2003 04:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Don's tight, but lets look at moving the yellow south one so it is on the river at the mouth. Thay way it can be made a perminant city if we like and will have access to the shielded grassland.

Yes, but then it will have one shield of corruption and will take an additional turn to build Archers/Spears.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn "Donegeal's Tight plan", is actually Borg spacing.

I don't think we will have much of a choice...

	04-05-2003 21:33									#16
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OK - a late vote - but after the turn chat of yesterday - donegeal's tight plan.