03-05-2003 06:56									#1
	Does Vox Survive? Put an end to popups!

We've discussed the issue of whether to let Vox live enough that I think a poll is in order. I don't view this as binding, but I'd like to get a stronger sense of which option people actually prefer.

	03-05-2003 07:06									#2
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Woohoow, I'm representing 100% of GS opinion thus far

DeepO

	03-05-2003 07:11									#3
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Good idea, Nathan.

This will be very handy to decide our war aims, and then we will be closer to being all on the same page vis-a-vis our stance.

One thing though, I strongly suggest that any harsh terms, like if the first three options are leading, be kept absolutely amongst ourselves for now. Unless we want Vox to go Kamikaze. That could have unfortunate consequences.

	03-05-2003 07:24									#4
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Even if we would go for the less harsh terms, this should be absolutely private, of course

DeepO

	03-05-2003 07:37									#5
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From a Voxian perspective, I view the third option as a long-shot gamble, but probably not as long a long shot as taking on Gathering Storm now that the balance of power has shifted. Vox still has one of the two top militaries on the planet right now. If they can get their surviving forces back home safely and keep building troops, and if war breaks out on Bob while they still have a respectable military, they might be able to grab enough territory to do okay. The chances of everything falling into place just right for them aren't all that good, so they'd have to decide how much an outside chance is worth to them.

	03-05-2003 09:36									#6
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Peace only if driven from the continent.

Our continent. OURS. End of story.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 09:51									#7
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I voted with Arrian. Drive them into the sea.


Do we have a killer instinct?

	03-05-2003 09:59									#8
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I did sorta mitigate my position in the other thread, so I'll clarify:

I prefer taking them out. Hence my vote. However, as with several other matters, I'm willing to compromise if the majority feels otherwise. However, anything short of GS control of the neck and all points south would be totally unacceptable. I'd probably have to resign as Co-General... I would have failed to do my job if the team decided to make peace for less.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 10:22									#9
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I'm fairly sure the minimum that will be acceptable to the team as a whole will be the neck and all South of it (Eliopolis being ours, or more precisely the hill S of it).

I think even I agree with that at this point because it is the best gaurantee against future misbehaviour.

OTOH, Vox is still a viable vassal/ally. There are many techs they can get in 40 that would save us from having to research them ourselves. They also seem to be adept at trading. Think about the freeze that has descended on our trading with everyone else. It is very possible that Vox may be our best leverage to break that embargo.

Also, they do have a very respectable military, and will have that for some time assuming they do not choose a win or die view. No matter how things break on Bob, having them just across the straights from Bob would be useful.

My thought du jour...

ND and GoW stick together. War breaks out with RP. We go for RP, our vally (new word) goes for GoW's Eastern holdings. There is no law we have to both support the same side, is there? Do we really want one of the Bob civs to gain greatly?

At a minimum for that to work, Vox would need to preserve a useful army and a base to be able to support it (as despots/monarchs that is not a huge issue). However, most importantly, we would have to leave them with dignity intact. Any talk of vassals and what-not could very well send the deal south right there. The members of Vox want to participate and have fun. I'm not sure they are up for humiliation.

To make this go a little longer... I don't see them accepting these terms at this time. They have a very respectable force still in the field. We should... motivate them while avoiding overly inflaming them and forcing us to annihilate so much that they lose threat value to the civs on Bob. The destruction of all or part of the seven wanderers would be a good start.

	03-05-2003 10:32									#10
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Yeah, but think of it from another angle:

1 or more Bobian civs come after us. Our "vally" could (would) most likely be swayed by them to betray us (again) and help out. That "respectable military" of theirs could be a problem for us again. Even if we have a nice hill city with pikes in it, they could still hurt us.

Look, if I actually trusted them, I wouldn't especially mind peace. We could built markets, libraries, temples & maybe the Colossus.

But I don't trust them. They are feeling weak, so they are starting to grovel a bit. But the second they feel strong (promises of alliance from Bobian civs), their mood could swing again.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 10:37									#11
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If we can take Arashi 9 and cut their seven-immortal attack force off from home (assuming they're retreating), that will force Vox to take a very close look at what is likely to happen next. Unless they can pull together enough forces to clear the mountain, that force would be pretty much a write-off no matter what they do unless they can make peace. I think that would be the time to present them with unpalatable peace terms if we're willing to have peace; they can make peace on our terms and keep those seven immortals (six of them vets) for future operations elsewhere, or their most powerful single troop concentration dies with few if any casualties on our side.

	03-05-2003 10:39									#12
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By the way, regarding any negotiations which might take place: please, whoever is doing it, negotiate from strength. Be not afraid of saying "nope, sorry, that's not good enough" and walking away. I do NOT want to bid against ourselves here. If we have the advantage (which I think we do), we should press it.

But again... how in the world can we trust them? I still think we should kill 'em.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 10:41									#13
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For a Bobian to come after us they would have to construct quite a large navy, and we would see the ships coming a mile off.

If we wait to go to Bob until RP can come straight across, then I believe the game is lost, kill Vox or no killl Vox. We will max our production soon. RP has a looooooong way to go before reaching their potential. If we allow them to come anywhere close to that potential, then we have erred greatly. That is why I favour Vox living, actually. I am not thinking 'kill Vox and.. then what?' I am thinking, how do we win, and can Vox help us win? I think we can win, and Vox could be an asset in that victory. I don't favour our chances 1 against Bob.

	03-05-2003 10:47									#14
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An asset is something that can be counted on. I don't exactly see Vox that way.

But I agree that we should consider our long-term goals... how do we think we can win? Right now, we're stuck on a relatively small island continent. The other teams are gonna catch & pass us, unless we figure a way to leverage our current lead into more.

I think many of us like the idea of attacking RP. But I still view that as just 1 possibility, and one that is fraught with potential pitfalls.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 10:48									#15
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NYE-

can you probe beta to see if war is going to happen on bob? they might have some clue. Its inevitible that something will go down there, which I think we can capitalize on, with or without vox, that's why I dont see them as crucial. I think we can join in the fun on bob, invited by the team getting it by 2 and thus take out one of the civs thatway.

	03-05-2003 10:51									#16
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Anyway, I've gotta hit the sack. It's a tad late.

'night fellas! *yawn*

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 10:56									#17
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atw.

I think we need to try to shape things. Look at the map, there is only one viable place for us to go on Bob. Our feelings re Togas notwithstanding, where RP lives is where our future lies.

I will try to seek out Beta tomorrow once I have a better idea of the direction of the poll that is going on now.

Arrian. Agreed. We should not get into a round of negotiations with Vox. We have an advantage and we should press it to gain our aims and objectives. The only place we differ is in detemining whether a dead Vox is the best Vox.

	03-05-2003 11:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If we can take Arashi 9 and cut their seven-immortal attack force off from home (assuming they're retreating), that will force Vox to take a very close look at what is likely to happen next. Unless they can pull together enough forces to clear the mountain, that force would be pretty much a write-off no matter what they do unless they can make peace. I think that would be the time to present them with unpalatable peace terms if we're willing to have peace; they can make peace on our terms and keep those seven immortals (six of them vets) for future operations elsewhere, or their most powerful single troop concentration dies with few if any casualties on our side.

A very cunning plan.

Of course, we could bombard the 7 and see it we can drop them some more, then go straight at them with every med inf we have. They wake up next turn short 3 or 4 immortals. They do not know if or what we lost. Motivation.

	03-05-2003 11:09									#19
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I'll vote for "other".
A viable alliance with Vox is not an option IMHO- we don't trust them, coordinating our efforts just means greater chance of backstab.

The incognito does have a point however- killing off vulnerable units in our territory is easy, but fighting it out in the trenches against Voxian defenses and building a huge army for this is a costly matter. Although we could certainly pull this off, an alternative such as the control of the hil near the isthmus and the territory south of it, as well as total control over their accesibility to Iron- meaning they cannot trade it without our approval.

Further more, i think it would be appropriate to destroy, or hurt as much as possible those units in our territory. True, they would be less effective against the Bobians- but as i see it, peace on our terms has to guarantee as much security as possible, considering the Voxian agression. Besides, our gains from taking over all of Vox, in terms of land and access to Bob are questionable- the land is useless without an FP, which we rather keep for an island/Bob territory, and a strait to Bob- mostly good against GoW, who is not a prime target compared to RP.

	03-05-2003 11:15									#20
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With Vox either cooperating or eliminated, we have good crossings to attack both RP and GoW. Neu Demogyptica would not be a particularly difficult target either from Voxian lands if Glory of War ends up needing our help against them. So while geography slightly favors RP as a target, we are left with freedom of choice.

With Glory of War and Neu Demogyptica not far from their golden ages and powerful unique units, it would be almost suicidal for us to attack Bob without a preexisting war there for cover. I think we need to wait and see how war on Bob shapes up before we pick a target.

	03-05-2003 11:26									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Standard operating procedure at Apolyton University would be to build a forbidden palace at a central location on our continent (probably Arashi) and hope fror a leader to rush a palace on Bob when the time is right. That provides a nice production boost on the home continent in the short term and better "palace" centering in the longer term. Also, forbidden palace cities have been known to culture flip on rare occasion if built in captured cities with foreign nationals. Palace cities can't flip, and a nearby palace helps avert flips in other cities in the area as well.

	03-05-2003 15:18									#22
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What is the OCN on standard maps again, under our current difficulty settings? I very rarely play anything other then huge, so it's hard to assess when corruption would be too much for us.

It looks like we could also build a FP at West Wittlich or however the city next to the 1 tile strait is called, and have both former Vox country, and a good part of Bob productive. Of course, a FP in the middle of RP would be better...

As to flipping: yes FPs can flip, but I'm sure we'll be able to offset any chance with a couple of grunts. Most of the flips I heard of happened in cities with tens of foreigners, or pressed against another empire, neither case applies to us here. We can get the risk to 0, not just to a small number.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 15:41									#23
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I voted up to and including Eliopolis.
I think we need to negotiate from a more powerful position in order to get them to agree to that. We can pling them down with 6 cats this turn (the one that we'll get as soon as Lego figures out their problems with the save; or are they stalling because Vox asked them to?), do the same next turn, and then probably attack with MedInfs and eliminate the entire stack.
IMHO if we stall negotiations, or at least don't give them anything too committing until we've destroyed that stack, we can go much farther than if we reach a deal sooner.

	03-05-2003 19:31									#24
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Vox has no future on our continent, and should never ever be our ally anymore. If the Bobians let them settle over there, I don't care.

	05-05-2003 07:06									#25
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We build an appropriate military, i.e., fastmovers.

While they push Vox into a grave or the ocean, we build.

Then we see what is what on Bob.

I don;t just want to negotiate from a position of strength... I want to PLAY from a position of strength.

Effing hell, I want UP.

	06-05-2003 16:01									#26
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I didn't get a chance to vote in this poll due to the long holiday weekend in the UK (plus escaping from work early on Friday). I think it depends on the situation on Bob. If nothing exciting is happening there, then we take Vox out completely. If RP get involve in a war in the near future, then we ideally secure everything south of the chokepoint, and invade RP while their troops are busy on the ND frontline. I'd be loathe to leave Vox with Elipolis under any circumstances - no use attacking RP if our island isn't secure; we'd just end up losing both in all likelihood, or not mustering enough of an attack force to threaten RP.