04-05-2003 23:57									#61
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Drake: why may I ask the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan?

Iraq is at the heart of the Arab region, a region that must be politically transformed if we ever want to beat Islamism. As such, successful nation-building and liberal democratization in Iraq will have an immensely positive effect on both the region and US interests. This great positive effect makes the difficult nation-building process in Iraq worthwhile, IMO.

The same thing can't be said for Afghanistan. What does America get out of the effort it will take to build Afghanistan? Is Afghanistan going to provide an example for reform in Iran or Pakistan? I doubt it. Will Afghanistan provide us with a strong ally in a vital region? Not really. I can't really find any strongly positive outcomes of a rebuilt Afghanistan that would justify intensive US involvement; I can in Iraq. That's the difference, IMO.

	04-05-2003 23:59									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Alot of things "could" have happened Commie.

	04-05-2003 23:59									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned I personally was very please that we no had a president that was willing to do more than fire a few dozens cruise missles and call it a victory. Of course, Bill Clinton probably would have gone after the Taliban as well given the severity of 9/11.

Clinton probably would have gone after them sooner, not having to have a debate in his government whether or not they should attack Iraq. The neo-cons actually argued that we should attack Iraq first. Clinton also would have brought our allies into the fight, rather than make them hold our tailcoats, even though they were begging us to let them join the fight. The entire world was outraged and wanted revenge on the Wahabbists, and Shrub blew it.

	05-05-2003 00:01									#64
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It is in our interests to create a viable nation in Afganistan so that some other terrrorist group doesn't set up shop there. Terrorist groups can only operate out of countries that are either willing to support them (a much smaller group these days) or are unable to stop them. If we leave Afganistan a mess, al-qaeda will move right back in when we are gone.

	05-05-2003 00:05									#65
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Clinton also would have brought our allies into the fight, rather than make them hold our tailcoats,

What would they have added?

	05-05-2003 00:06									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What Commie said.

Well the one about "it's in our best interests," not the one about Clinton.

	05-05-2003 00:07									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: It is in our interests to create a viable nation in Afganistan so that some other terrrorist group doesn't set up shop there.

It's a lot cheaper to spend just enough money to keep Karzai in power and use US troops to keep al Qaeda out. That seems like the plan so far, along with the hope that a future Afghan army will help Karzai extend his power base.

	05-05-2003 00:22									#68
	Got spare money?

Big news, for me.

Why is it big news? When the war ended, the US said it would put about $2 billion into Afghanistan over the next three years. This is the first installment. Here's a random article...

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/...42?OpenDocument

Please note that these are US federal fiscal years, which begin in October. For instance, FY '03 is October 1, 2002 through September 30, 2003.

	05-05-2003 00:26									#69
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What would they have added?

Millitarily, little. Politically, a lot.

	05-05-2003 00:28									#70
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: "The only sector that seems to be downsizing here is you guys, the media," says Alberto Fernandez, spokesman for the US Embassy in Kabul. "All the news organizations are running after the war in Iraq, but the aid groups, the UN, the US Embassy staff, we're all here to stay."

quote: For their part, Afghan officials say they are grateful for the continued attention of the world donor community. "The war in Iraq will not have any effect on what the US has already pledged to Afghanistan," says Afghan Finance Minister Ashraf Ghani Ahmedzai. "On the contrary, the US will intensify its assistance."

	05-05-2003 01:33									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Millitarily, little.

Then what use would it have served to have granted thier request to be there if they would have, for all intents and purposes, just stood there.

quote: Politically, a lot.

How would that have helped the foregone conclusion of the campaign and how is that purpose not being filled by the international peacekeeping force now?

	05-05-2003 01:44									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Clinton probably would have gone after them sooner, not having to have a debate in his government whether or not they should attack Iraq. The neo-cons actually argued that we should attack Iraq first. Clinton also would have brought our allies into the fight, rather than make them hold our tailcoats, even though they were begging us to let them join the fight. The entire world was outraged and wanted revenge on the Wahabbists, and Shrub blew it.

It was about a month later that we went in. What advantage would be gained from more speed? And how long do you think it takes to plan the operation and move forces around, anyway?

	05-05-2003 02:01									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I supported the Afghan war. I remember hearing on the news that Usama Bin Ladin declared war on USA in the summer of 2001. I think most people just shook their heads and thought "what a lunatic" and forgot all about it, then in September he attacked. That made the attack on Afghanistan a war of defense. It also had a massive support in UN and the world opinion.

The attack on Iraq, on the other hand...

	05-05-2003 02:06									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The old Solviets wanted Afghanistan an a stepping stone to a warm water port. The US wants controlled access to the oil in the new central Asian republics, with a pipeline through Afghanistan to Packistan. Islamist movements are being brutally supressed in Uzbek, Tajik, Kazhak and Turkmen all with assistance from the USA.

However, stabalizing the region will take far too long - much quicker to liberate Iraqi oil.

	05-05-2003 02:24									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree Sparky.

I can't wait to get my 50 cent gas.

	05-05-2003 02:25									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I can't wait to get my 50 cent gas.

	05-05-2003 02:32									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Then we should simply nationalize Exxon/Mobile, renationalize BP & Petrocan. I suspect it will take a slightly smaller troup deployment and in North America the only casualties will be in Texas and Alberta. I think you'd agree such losses would be acceptable.

	05-05-2003 02:32									#78
	Inflate your Upload Space

Uncle Sparky, doing one of his uneducated, biased claims again...

	05-05-2003 02:35									#79
	Put an end to popups!

Fez - Did I say capitalist aggression was a bad thing !?!
What do you have against cheap oil ?!? Commie !

	05-05-2003 02:37									#80
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I love capitalism. But your tone is put in such a way that makes it sound bad. Not mine! Calling me commie is like calling me French, when I am actually Spanish.

	05-05-2003 02:47									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aren't Spanish just French wantabees ?

	05-05-2003 02:50									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think you're referring to Quebec Sparky.

	05-05-2003 02:53									#83
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Aren't Spanish just French wantabees ?

You just proved how clueless you really are.

The French treat us like crap. Always have been that way.

	05-05-2003 02:55									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Is there any bait you won't take Fez?

	05-05-2003 03:02									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

FP: When somebody even tries to compare me to the French.. there will be trouble. I mean they used to throw our products into a river near the Spanish/French border! How evil is that! They also call us animals. Not my fault Spanish Army officers took rope and snapped the necks of chickens... and then BBQed them.

	05-05-2003 03:04									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Fez The French treat us like crap.

Do we ? I thought we didn't have the time, with all the Rosbifs and Yanks on our hands...

	05-05-2003 03:05									#87
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We do keep them rather busy, Fez...

	05-05-2003 03:05									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I understand your point, Fez. I feel a similar way when somebody compares me to a Spaniard.

	05-05-2003 03:12									#89
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I understand your point, Fez. I feel a similar way when somebody compares me to a Spaniard.

quote: Originally posted by Fez FP: When somebody even tries to compare me to the French.. there will be trouble.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor thought we didn't have the time, with all the Rosbifs and Yanks on our hands

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We do keep them rather busy, Fez...

American, English, French and Spanish brethren, let us pu aside our differences and rejoice together to thank our lucky stars that we aren't Greek.