03-05-2003 22:35									#1
	What was your opinion about Afghanistan conflict? Enter the AD-FREE zone

The post-9/11 war, that is.

It was a different puppy from the Iraq fight, at least if we look at the public opinion. Protests weren't as big as the Iraq demos and U.S efforts had an international support. Nevertheless, while I don't remember the discussions that well, I'm sure there were more than a few people in Poly, too, who opposed the first part in War on Terror.

Basically, I supported the war. I mean, the Taliban had to go - they were supporting one of the most if not the most dangerous terrorist leaders of the world, and had been supporting him for far too long. And I don't much see what other alternatives there were.

	03-05-2003 22:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I wasn't too nuts about the war, but the world is at least a marginally better place now those Taliban lunatics have a great deal less power.

	03-05-2003 22:56									#3
	Remove this text

I was against the Afghanistan war, because I didn't think conventional warfare would be any efficient against terrorism.

I am very glad the Talebans are out of power now, but I still don't think it was the best move. The only argument that could really sway me in favor of the Afghani war now would be "if the US army had weakend the Taleban power without waging actual warfare, the resulting power vacuum would have made the following anarchy even worse than it is today".

	03-05-2003 23:22									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Uh, the war is still going on, despite the lack of interest from the US news media.

	03-05-2003 23:23									#5
	Re: What was your opinion about Afghanistan conflict? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Basically, I supported the war. I mean, the Taliban had to go - they were supporting one of the most if not the most dangerous terrorist leaders of the world, and had been supporting him for far too long. And I don't much see what other alternatives there were.

Pretty much the same for me. Not that I´m happy about wars, but if a regime thinks it can act in that way without facing serious reaction then it should be removed, and if it only was because of its stupidity.

	03-05-2003 23:27									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Uh, the war is still going on, despite the lack of interest from the US news media.

The major combat phase (whatever that means) is over according to the Pentagon.

	03-05-2003 23:43									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You can't really call it a war any more MtG; it's more like a low intensity conflict. More people die of gang violience in the US then in the supposed war in Afghanistan.

	03-05-2003 23:50									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I hate the Taliban more than I hate the Bush Administration. Anyone who closes universities and schools is, just, ugh. What they did to half of their population is shameful.

	04-05-2003 00:44									#9
	Suffering from ads?

We didn't invade Afghanistan to to nation-build, we invaded to get Al-Queda.

Even though we didn't get them all, I do think the results speak for themselves.

	04-05-2003 00:50									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree with toppling of Taliban as it was probably the worst regime in place world wide... apart from lowering heroin production, they didn't seem to do anything else good, but my opinion is that the coalition should have been working well there and build their base in the region, meaning - nation building, adopt, rebuild and give people some hope for more than warlod rule outside of Kabul, and it would be a good example to the Arabs that the west finally means well, but of course we don't give a **** as usual

	04-05-2003 00:58									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Afghanistan no longer really exists as a country, or at least is similar to Somalia. Current Warlord count is about 27 or 28. Four, in and around Kabul, are more or less pro American. Most of the others appreciate that the US gave them the means to reestablish the Opium business. There are 3 or 4 in the south that are still largely Taleban, but of course not using that name.

Foreign aid workers generally stay as close to Kabul as possible. In many regions they are considered legitimate targets.

In the vast majority of states education and women's rights haven't been pressing issues, and won't be.

Of course in many areas, you no longer have to worry about going missing if you aren't fundamentalist enough ... If your too fundamentalist however you might find yourself in trouble (just like in neighboring Packistan) with the liberating forces.

I suspect the less the outside world knows about what is really going on in Afghanistan, the happier the Pentagon will be.

	04-05-2003 01:00									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Even though we didn't get them all, I do think the results speak for themselves.

That you acomplished nothing?

	04-05-2003 01:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: That you acomplished nothing?

Your own avatar is evidence that things have been accomplished, moron.

	04-05-2003 01:44									#14
	Got spare money?

Well said Drake.

	04-05-2003 01:48									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: That you acomplished nothing? Your own avatar is evidence that things have been accomplished, moron.

;




As Osweld's sig says:

"The Afghanistan situation is acceptable because the warlords there are pro-US and anti-Taliban." - Shi Huangdi

OBL no longer has free basing in Afghanistan

	04-05-2003 02:01									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: That you acomplished nothing? Your own avatar is evidence that things have been accomplished, moron.

(BTW, you're the only other 'Poly member I've seen with a Welsh sig Drake = )

Back ON topic:
I was in favour, I think it had to be done. It's just a shame that it had to be done. If you see what I mean...

Edit: whole post didn't come out originally

	04-05-2003 02:05									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was in favor of it for other reasons than "changing Afghanistan". That is an afterthought. The number one thing was to show all other states, warlords, etc. what the punishment was for suporting enemies of the US. number two objective was to capture Al Queda and hurt their organization.

"Fixing Afg." was an afterthought.

I was in favor of it, but it is really interesting to see how these things tend to change in hindsight. For instance GW1 was opposed by the vast majority of US Democrat Senators. And popular opinion was much more mixed. But in hindsight, it is not opposed.

	04-05-2003 02:39									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sadly uncle sparky is correct about afghanistan.

We shuoldn't think that if we let them fight amongst themselves it is better for us. It isn't. Another taleban will rise out of the ashes.

We need some nation building.

	04-05-2003 02:44									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see how anybody in their right mind would argue against the Afghan war. I seen enough crap about the war against Saddam and his regime.

The Afghan Military seems to be in better progress, up to 20,000 trained last time I heard.

I think Karzai is coming to the point where the Afghan Army will be abled to go out and nab warlords that are proving to be a problem.

With the new Afghani currency, I think Afghanistan is on its way to a slow but decent recovery. The new Afghani last I heard was doing well, and has reasserted Karzai's control over the country, which at times seems threatened.

I see a lot of potential growing. What I want to see now is a oil pipeline built through Afghanistan, that will generate significant amounts of revenue for the Afghan Government.

	04-05-2003 02:44									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Afghanistan no longer really exists as a country, or at least is similar to Somalia. Current Warlord count is about 27 or 28. Four, in and around Kabul, are more or less pro American. Most of the others appreciate that the US gave them the means to reestablish the Opium business. There are 3 or 4 in the south that are still largely Taleban, but of course not using that name. Foreign aid workers generally stay as close to Kabul as possible. In many regions they are considered legitimate targets. In the vast majority of states education and women's rights haven't been pressing issues, and won't be. Of course in many areas, you no longer have to worry about going missing if you aren't fundamentalist enough ... If your too fundamentalist however you might find yourself in trouble (just like in neighboring Packistan) with the liberating forces. I suspect the less the outside world knows about what is really going on in Afghanistan, the happier the Pentagon will be.

didn't you give the govt. in Jordan a week from the beginning of the war?

	04-05-2003 04:04									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You can't really call it a war any more MtG; it's more like a low intensity conflict. More people die of gang violience in the US then in the supposed war in Afghanistan.

If you're an 11-Bravo inserted into an LZ in the Khowst valley, it's a war.

More people died of gang violence most likely in the three-four weeks in Iraq than were KIA'd, but it's still not someplace where you get transferred with your family and expect to have a nice, cush overseas tour. It's still no-**** soldiering in the middle of lots of people who don't like you there.

	04-05-2003 19:23									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Sadly uncle sparky is correct about afghanistan. We shuoldn't think that if we let them fight amongst themselves it is better for us. It isn't. Another taleban will rise out of the ashes. We need some nation building.

Not just another Taliban - the original is coming back. Afghanistan was exactly the same place before they rose to power, that these warlords fought each other. When they got squeezed out, they became the Northern Alliance.

Not a thing has changed.

	04-05-2003 20:47									#23
	What was your Opinion on the Afghanistan Conflict Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I considered the War in Afghanistan as justified.

Aside from being a regime which destroyed one of the Wonders of the World (the Buddha Statues) and suppressed women it could also be proven without much doubt that the Taliban had a Link to a worldwide Terror Organization and supported them by all means possible.

In the light of this and the high probability that it was just this Terror Organization the Taliban protected, which conducted the attacks on the WTC, I saw a casus belli as given.


Of course on the aftermath I see also many broken promises and some points to criticize. It was for example prior to war promised to the Afghani, that they would receive lots of money for the reconstruction and would get help in every way possible to build their society.
But the US-Troops which could help Karzai to project his power to the different regions of the Country and therefore help him to control the warlords are to busy seeking terrorists than to do other constructive things.
And just at the beginning of this year a grant of 300 Mio US-$ which would have helped the Afghani in their reconstruction efforts, was rejected by the US-Congress.

Last edited by Proteus_MST on 04-05-2003 at 20:57

	04-05-2003 20:51									#24
	Put an end to popups!

I agreed with the military action in Afghanistan. Although I don't think it has been effective as the US military has made it out to be. I'm sure there's a lot the public doesn't know about thing there. I think they are trying to prop up the Karzai government so they can let the Afghani's maintain order. But I think that the US will be involved there for a long time to come with no significantly good things happening.

	04-05-2003 20:57									#25
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sava I agreed with the military action in Afghanistan. Although I don't think it has been effective as the US military has made it out to be. I'm sure there's a lot the public doesn't know about thing there. I think they are trying to prop up the Karzai government so they can let the Afghani's maintain order. But I think that the US will be involved there for a long time to come with no significantly good things happening.

In terms of making a magical transformation of Afghanistan, it may not have been as successful as people think. (Although, I think it is pretty well-reported that there is still ongoing hostilities and such there.) In terms of taking over the unconquerable country, it has been a pretty magnificent success. With a bunch of special forces, some airpower and an ally (Norther Alliance) that was supposed to be irrelevant, the country was taken over, IN WINTER! Remember some of the other issues (no sea access. No land access allowed through Pakistan.) 8000 miles away.

I think MTG was valiidated in being optimistic about the ability to win the conventional battle here. And most people (including myself) were a bit more worried about our ability to acheive this. Go back and check the old threads. It's amazing how everyone says its easy in hindsight, but few said it ahead of time. I remember being worried about the winter. Especially after reading that Brit essay about 12 foot snow drifts and the impossibility of fighting in the winter.

	04-05-2003 21:01									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not just another Taliban - the original is coming back. Afghanistan was exactly the same place before they rose to power, that these warlords fought each other. When they got squeezed out, they became the Northern Alliance. Not a thing has changed.

The goal of the war was not to change the country but to:

A. Punish the Taliban for
1. Vengeance
2. Prevention of future support for terrorists
3. A message to other states that they would be eliminated if they supported our enemies.

B. Punish the Al Queda for
1. Vengeance.
2. Making it hard to continue attacks, make new ones.

	04-05-2003 21:03									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree the US has had a lot of success where others have failed. I also don't think there is another nation on the planet that could have done a better job. I tend to agree more with the "unconquerable" part.

	04-05-2003 21:08									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: That you acomplished nothing? Your own avatar is evidence that things have been accomplished, moron.

So you supplied warlords with weapons and ammo, fueling the the ongoing civil war, invaded the country and leveled it with bombs, killing thousands of people, just to catch a handfull of people? Good job. (and mostly failed at that, I might add)

Atleast you gave something for the next generation to do, I'm sure there's thousands more children who've had their parents and friends killed by the american imperialists who will grow up and fly another plane into a building or blow themselves up so we can all do it over again.

	04-05-2003 21:14									#29
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Osweld So you supplied warlords with weapons and ammo, fueling the the ongoing civil war, invaded the country and leveled it with bombs, killing thousands of people, just to catch a handfull of people? Good job. Atleast you gave something for the next generation to do, I'm sure there's thousands more children who've had their parents and friends killed by the american imperialists who will grow up and fly another plane into a building or blow themselves up so we can all do it over again.

Well that is one point of view. I guess one point of view says that if we couldn't do the damage to Afgh, that we did, we should have just stayed out of it. (Of course, you are also the guy who said that there should be a 0% rate of collateral damage in bombing attacks.)

We decided to take the opposite point of view. That ignoring the problem is percieved as weakness and that it is better to be aggressive about countermeasures. Time will tell who is right. But I believe that when you touch a nettle, you should grasp it firmly.

	04-05-2003 21:15									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Atleast you gave something for the next generation to do, I'm sure there's thousands more children who've had their parents and friends killed by the american imperialists who will grow up and fly another plane into a building or blow themselves up so we can all do it over again.

Point taken. But we had to get rid of the current generation that did fly planes into buildings. The possibility exists to help future generations so it doesn't happen again.