04-05-2003 03:53									#1
	Where/ whether we should build the Civilian Donations wonder Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The only wonder we can build ATM is Civilian Donations= the Colossus, more will be avaliable over time and as we reasearch tech.

Moscow: the city that will give us max trade benifit and has excellent production, if we lose it we've basicaly lost the game anyway but it will deny the vital Belorussian front some high quality troops for a while.

Baku: good trade benifit and can use trade convoys out of the middle east to speed production (althogh it's probably more profitable to establish trade routes with them instead), little danger of capture.

Stalingrad: good trade benifit, excellent production, some danger of capture.

U.K.: (in the readme it says it's an exploit to use convoys to help built wonders in UK...)
all the above have universities/banks etc.

Edit: damn I meant this to be a poll oh well just post where/if it should be built and why here.

Last edited by greeny on 04-05-2003 at 16:00

	04-05-2003 08:06									#2
	Remove this text

Since this is an "EXtra Trade" producing wonder I say we build it in Baku, we can still use the Convoys from Iran if necessary to help the rush build. Just sail them across the Caspian Sea.

	04-05-2003 10:45									#3
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I thought King Richards Crusade added extra shield production to your city.

It's the Collussus that gives a trade bonus.

	04-05-2003 15:57									#4
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ah, you are right (edited) it's the one that gives an extra trade arrow to every squre that already produces one. Which if you look at the city screens makes Moscow the best choice IMHO as almost all squares wil yeild a bonus.

	04-05-2003 18:08									#5
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quote: Originally posted by greeny ah, you are right (edited) it's the one that gives an extra trade arrow to every squre that already produces one. Which if you look at the city screens makes Moscow the best choice IMHO as almost all squares wil yeild a bonus.

Really, have you taken a look at that? I would definately like to know where it would produce the biggest increase in trade arrows. Are you sure its Moscow? If so I may change my vote. Let me know please.

	04-05-2003 18:12									#6
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Here is the effect right from the Engineering Documents for this Wonder:

"City produces one extra trade arrow in each square that
already produces one."

So I guess if Moscow has the most trade arrow producing hexes then that would be the place to build where it would have the most effect.

Ill think on this and possibly change my vote.

	04-05-2003 18:45									#7
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we need the units from Moscow
let's build it in baku

	05-05-2003 04:27									#8
	Build it in Gorky comrades! ( near moscow) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Gorky already has the trans-siberian wonder which doubles science, with the wonder it will really become a good trading city with other improvements

	05-05-2003 05:00									#9
	Re: Build it in Gorky comrades! ( near moscow) Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Colwyn Gorky already has the trans-siberian wonder which doubles science, with the wonder it will really become a good trading city with other improvements

I was thinking the same thing this afternoon.

Economics Minister what do you think fo this option?

And what more important right now this wonder in Gorky? Or building units to pump into the Belorussian Front?

	05-05-2003 08:17									#10
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Well, my 2 kopecks worth...

We shouldn't build it anywhere. I mean, we haven't managed to even get all the oilfield tiles roaded, thus far, and roaded oil tiles will produce more base arrows than the wonder will, at a lot less cost.

Furthermore... we shouldn't use the Supply Convoys to build wonders. A single Baku-Grozny convoy can yield over a million rubles, plus a thousand beakers or so.

I say wait, and build a wonder with better overall value, later.

	05-05-2003 18:04									#11
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Some good points have been made here, long term it looks like Gorkiy would produce the best benifit, especialy once it's road net is improved. STYOM makes a good point that roads in the Caucuses will produce bigger trade revenues and that has to be a priority. Gorkiy is currently building an armaments factory which will be finished in 4 turns so I think Civilan DOnations should be built after that. Meanwhile I think we should consider starting building it in a resonably high production city like Sverdlovsk or Astrakhan and then switch to a better wonder once they become avaliable so they can be finished quickly and free up our highest production cities (Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad) which will likely be on the front lines or close to then, for troop production.

	07-05-2003 01:47									#12
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Gorkiy if this does not sacrifice our defense of Leningrad.

Otherwise, I vote don't build and wait for a better wonder.

	07-05-2003 01:57									#13
	Got spare money?

we need the wonders in places away from the front
Astrakan sounds good to me
maybe in those ural cities with interesting terrain surroundin them

	07-05-2003 02:54									#14
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I meant Askabad at Iran
units are Astrakan are also going to be necessary, specially next summer with the bridge

	07-05-2003 03:59									#15
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I'm still of the opinion that the cost doesn't equal the benefit. Even in a city that's working all 21 of its tiles (Moscow, Stalingrad) - CD only provides 21 extra trade arrows, or more or less the same as roading 2 oilfield tiles.

This wonder will cost us 200 shields, IIRC, which is 2 KV-1s. And we need those KV-1's, badly. Moreover, we'll probably want to incrementally rush KV-1s in Gorky and Astrakhan... building Civilian Donations in either city will prevent us from doing that for several turns in that city, OR will cost us about a million rubles to rushbuild the wonder in a turn. We could better use that money to rushbuild KV-1s.

What do we need 21 (or less) extra arrows for, anyway? We already have the key tech we need, and the extra cash from 21 arrows is negligible.

Bottom line is, right now, the opportunity cost is too great. Better to wait, and build Electrification, or Labor Front, or Naval Convoy System... etc.

	07-05-2003 04:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by greeny Some good points have been made here, long term it looks like Gorkiy would produce the best benifit, especialy once it's road net is improved. STYOM makes a good point that roads in the Caucuses will produce bigger trade revenues and that has to be a priority. Gorkiy is currently building an armaments factory which will be finished in 4 turns so I think Civilan DOnations should be built after that. Meanwhile I think we should consider starting building it in a resonably high production city like Sverdlovsk or Astrakhan and then switch to a better wonder once they become avaliable so they can be finished quickly and free up our highest production cities (Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad) which will likely be on the front lines or close to then, for troop production.

I agree with this approach, lets wait and see what this next turn brings at the beginning of winter we start Civilian Donations in the Urals somewhere and switch to a better wonder once its discovered.

Sound good Ecomics Minister?

	07-05-2003 11:19									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

An improvement/wonder shield is cheaper than a unit one though.

	07-05-2003 11:48									#18
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Improvement yes, but Wonder?? I thought the Wonder shields were even more expensive than the units one??

	07-05-2003 14:53									#19
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I thought it was the same

Someone better check

	07-05-2003 15:14									#20
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What are you two talking about? I dont understand the question?

This is an extra trade producing wonder. It is the same thing as collossus (sp?)

	07-05-2003 15:19									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They are talking about the relative cost of rushbuying a wonder shields compared to unit shields.

And I agree with the proposal to start it in Sverdlovsk in the Urals and then change to a better value wonder once one becomes avaliable.

	07-05-2003 18:09									#22
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STYOM, it's important to remeber that although this wonder only produces 21 extra trade arrows maximum, it also allows the Superhighway (Oil Refinery) benefit to come into effect, thus giving 42 trade arrows if built in the right city! Its benfit would be even further increased in a city during "WLTK" day.

I say build it in Gorky. You can get a nice money bonus by homing trade units to Baku and then airlifting them to this city.

	08-05-2003 05:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by our_man STYOM, it's important to remeber that although this wonder only produces 21 extra trade arrows maximum, it also allows the Superhighway (Oil Refinery) benefit to come into effect, thus giving 42 trade arrows if built in the right city! Its benfit would be even further increased in a city during "WLTK" day. I say build it in Gorky. You can get a nice money bonus by homing trade units to Baku and then airlifting them to this city.

True enough, re the Oil Refinery point. But then, the Refinery isn't cheap either - that's a few more turns spent building that, or rubles expended - and the 42 hypothetical arrows it would produce won't happen in Gorky. Gorky isn't size 20, it's only size 10, IIRC, so only 22 arrows extra. In Moscow or Stalingrad, sure, we could get 40 extra arrows or so (once the tiles are all roaded - and not all of them are... so we need more Labor Brigades to have the full effect). But again, do we really need those arrows so badly? We'll get more 'bang for the ruble' building a different wonder.