04-05-2003 12:09									#1
	AI Espionage Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just a quick poll for those who are more in the know than I am.

Does the AI use "investigate city" or any number of the espionage tools?

Does the AI spend $$$ to establish embassies?

Does it cost them $$$ to plant spies and conduct espionage missions?

These are things I can't tease out from watching them play in debug (damn Firaxis for not letting us access the AI civ's info screens) and can only vaguely guess at during play against them.

	04-05-2003 14:36									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Not much apparently. The AI does establish embassies - more so on the higher difficulty levels but I find I usually establish an embassy with all the AI civs first.

I have once had the AI steal my war plan showing where my units are and once had production in a city sabotaged. It seems the AI doesn't use spies much, even if they have the gold to do so.

	04-05-2003 15:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ive been playing the game since its release here in Britain, well some of the time that is.
While Ive only noticed the AI set up embassies once in all that time I have seen them use spies quite a bit. I think the most likely reason why they dont use them more is that the AI rarely has enough cash to afford the missions.

	04-05-2003 19:43									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Cerebrus, sounds like the AI who stole your war plans was wasting a lot of money, since we know that the AI "knows" all troop locations in explored map areas.

Personally, I've had AIs establish embassies with me, but never been alerted to any other spy or diplomacy actions.

	04-05-2003 20:11									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

only a couple times has the AI established embassies with me, and it was later in the game one of the top civs in that game.

I also find that if one tries to establish a spy in my city (china in my current game if that matters), and they fail, they try several times. so i dont know how many have actually been successful...

	04-05-2003 22:48									#6
	Remove this text

In my games the AI likes to establish embassies... It's rare to "see" any spy activity made by the AI, but in my last game it tried to plant one and failed... I could also make once a counterspyonage action, and killed one of his spies. It felt good.

	04-05-2003 23:18									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've never watched closely enough to see treasury amounts dropping, but I've concluded for myself that espionage missions do indeed cost the AI $$$ just as they do humans. In those games where AI foes have very healthy treasuries, and particularly where the large treasuries are present alongside relative isolation for the AIs making conquest more difficult, I seem to experience much more espionage activities.

The compilation below came from one of the early AU games in which each of 8 civs started on an indentical island landmass -- treasuries boomed, but inter-continental invasions were limited by the AIs' abilities at managing such invasions.

Catt

Attachment: espionage compilation.jpg
This has been downloaded 160 time(s).

	05-05-2003 00:25									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Fosse Cerebrus, sounds like the AI who stole your war plans was wasting a lot of money, since we know that the AI "knows" all troop locations in explored map areas. Personally, I've had AIs establish embassies with me, but never been alerted to any other spy or diplomacy actions.

This may be a little academic, but the AI doesn't behave like a human does. It doesn't play with a monitor. While it may technically know all unit locations, the AI could easily be handicapped with certain bonuses for using spy missions, like stealing your military plans.


We will never know what it is. And frankly, the way the AI is setup to play against each other and against the human lend me to believe that AI may know the kind and type of units in your cities, but they may not have complete information. Otherwise, watching the AI's playing against each other would have been watching an exercise in not losing, since they would always know how many units are marching towards one of their cities and rush enough troops to prevent it from falling.

And I've seen one riveting war after another, where two comparable AI civs, with enough mobile cavalry units to rush around lose cities en masse and make failoed offensives with too few units.

We should be very cautious about making such statements as "AI knows all troop locations" because likely, it knows it in a different way than we humans think it knows.

	05-05-2003 03:50									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

one thing has been puzzling me for a while... where does the gold go when you pay to establish an embassy? I know I don't receive any extra when civs establish embassies in my capital! I assume it should go to the civ that has the embassy plonked down in it's capital but I haven't seen any evidence of it.. same goes for the mega expensive espionage missions..

	05-05-2003 05:30									#10
	Support Apolyton

It goes to your ambassador's and spy's pockets!

And, of course, to buying material to build the embassy, special spy equipment, and that sorts of things.

	05-05-2003 12:37									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah - embassy land rental for 5,000 odd years would cover embassy costs.

I am FAIRLY certain the AI conducts espionage missions. On a recent game, Carthage developed Rocketry and Computers suspiciously quickly. On the turn I was the first to research computers, Carthage's gold dropped by 4,000 odd gold - so it looks to me like an espionage attempt had taken place.

I immedietely whored Computers before Carthage had a chance to do the same.

On a different note, a spy would be necessary to keep an eye on the Space Race - which would be a valid reason for the AI to plant spies.

	05-05-2003 15:09									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Difficult to say whether the AI investigates cities, but I am sure it sometimes uses other espionage tools and establishes embassies (rare, I usually establish them first).

	05-05-2003 15:37									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

nice work catt.

	05-05-2003 22:15									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Daz nice work catt.

Like he always does.

	06-05-2003 00:31									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by dexters Otherwise, watching the AI's playing against each other would have been watching an exercise in not losing, since they would always know how many units are marching towards one of their cities and rush enough troops to prevent it from falling. And I've seen one riveting war after another, where two comparable AI civs, with enough mobile cavalry units to rush around lose cities en masse and make failoed offensives with too few units. We should be very cautious about making such statements as "AI knows all troop locations" because likely, it knows it in a different way than we humans think it knows.

I agree that they know it "differently" than we do, but I don't think that the AI failing to intelligently predict where my (or each others') stack of units is heading is a good indication that they don't know where they are.

I seriously doubt that the AI gains any advantage from stealing plans unless it is strictly a bonus or handicap situation of some sort, as you suggested is possible.

If I reacall correctly, Soren told us long ago that the AI knows exactly what kinds of troops are in any map square that it has knowledge of.

Anyhow... Catt's proven that the AI certainly engages in all kinds of diplomacy if they have the funds... and if they want to spend the gold on learning something they probably already know, who am I to stand in their way?

	06-05-2003 10:40									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Catt! That's a lot of espionage.

On my chieftain experiences...

* Sometimes they establish embassies. But they're so slow to it that it's cheaper for you to to establish the embassy

* Initating a WW3 (sign tons of MPPs, declare war on someone, and have all hell break loose with your allies signing alliances with your enemies, so you turn on them) leads to widescale espionage. I've had military plans stolen, my spy exposed, and production sabotages twice

* Even if you get caught doing espionage, they won't respond back unless you do something really dirty like what I did above - set a ww3 and everyone never got polite afterwards.

* They'll always plant spies. In one game I discovered spies from 5 civs (out of 6). Once when I was in anarchy I caught Elizabeth trying to plant a spy.

	06-05-2003 14:51									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Fosse I agree that they know it "differently" than we do, but I don't think that the AI failing to intelligently predict where my (or each others') stack of units is heading is a good indication that they don't know where they are. I seriously doubt that the AI gains any advantage from stealing plans unless it is strictly a bonus or handicap situation of some sort, as you suggested is possible. If I reacall correctly, Soren told us long ago that the AI knows exactly what kinds of troops are in any map square that it has knowledge of.

We're going OT here, but I want to respond to this point.

Just tonight, In my current huge map game, the Koreans, who are on the other side of the continent have already decided to attack me.

They did something sneaky, and trade iron to the the Romans so now, my neighbour who I was planning to invade, the Romans, will have legionaries. Great.

But that's besides the point. The Korean offensive basically took a nice roundabout route and snuck into my territory, as if by plan, through a mountainous region. I have a series of pop 2 cities here that aren't growing and not much is happening, so I rarely check the this side of the map.

When I discovered what was happening (this was before they declared war), I quickly rushed a warrior that was fortified on a hill, as well as diverted 2 pikemen from a nearby city. No now, my city that was previously defended by a lone spearman has 2 pikeman and 1 warrior + the spearman.

The AI, whose attack force consisted of a screening spearman for D and about 8 warriors attacked anyways.

Maybe the AI calculated that its sheer numerical superiority would win it that day, but i really doubt it. I saw 1 swordmans in the attack, which could do some damage, but against veteran pikeman the 1 attack warriors are more likely to create elite defenders than do wipe them out.

In anycase, my point is, in this instance, the AI did not suddenly call off the attack upon my reinforcement of the target city.

This is on PTW 1.21F. So it is likely Soren has blinded the AI somewhat or delayed it so that the AI doesn't get complete infromation as to your troop movements and only has a general idea of where your weak spots might be.

With this, it may get a signal from the Leader AI to attack some city along the border, but by the time the troops arrive there to attack, it may not get updated information as to whether the units inside the cities have been reinforced. This would, essentially create a more human response. We may have spotted a choice city to take, but by the time we get an army to the location to attack, the AI has fortified it and it has gotten several more defenders because of the passage of time.

This certainly has happened to me before.

Edit: if anyone can confirm what I observed tonight, I'd appreciate it.

	07-05-2003 00:29									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

dexters, I can only confirm that the AI does not seemingly get unit location updates every turn, OR that they do not update unit orders every turn due to unit location omniscience.

In my territory there were not one, but TWO chokepoints. The AI was to my south and vacant land was opening up to the north. AI settler pairs were approaching the chokepoints and at 3-4 tile range I would alternate blocking the routes. Sometimes (not always), the settler pairs would continue moving on their path for ONE extra turn, then change course.