12-05-2003 05:53									#31
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It's funny... I've been thinking about this all day... if I had to reduce Wonders down to the minimum, what would I NEED?

FP.

That's it.

To answer the intent of the question, though, Bach and Smith are the only really essential GWs.

Colossus is strictly a bonus GW.

I don;t have much problem keeping up on tech anymore (Emperor), so GLib is extraneous.

Leo's is nice, but I can live without, and Sun Tzu, other than for "conquest Barracks", is not enough of a benefit over just building Barracks... I find warmongering easy enough without the warmongering Wonders.

After that, Hoover is great, but live-without-able.

But give me an FP, and I will rule the world.

	12-05-2003 12:04									#32
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I have to disagree with you Theseus on the ADAM Smith one, as being essential. I (try to) build it when I can too, but it's certainly not important, it's probably from playing Civ2 we still think it is.
-
best wonder: pyramids (although I ever get to build it)
Map dependant : Great Lighthouse

	12-05-2003 18:22									#33
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I just recalled an old proverb: If you can't get the one you love, you have to love the one you get!

What I mean is, skill is being able to adapt - you get to build some great wonders during the game, you just don't know which (can't get the ones you love) , but you should be able to adjust your playing style accordingly (love the ones you get). In that sense, I agree with Theseus, that you only really need the FP (and skill!).

	12-05-2003 18:37									#34
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I'll take "best" Wonders to mean those that most influence a winning position. I'm not including the Forbidden Palace because it is so clearly above all the rest, nor the United Nations due to its special role. Finally, I'm going to assume that the games in which these Wonders are built are "close", in the sense that one player is not completely dominating; Hoover did not make my short list because I've never seen it built in a tight race (the game is usually "over" by then).

1. Theory of Evolution

The best, biggest and baddest "swing" Wonder in the game, this baby can turn the tides in all but the most hopeless games (where you would never get to build it, anyway). One of the best "dirty tricks" against the AI is simply to beeline and plan to secure the Theory of Evolution, a plan which is successful because the AI does not prioritize this Wonder enough. Against human opponents, I can imagine the race for the Toe would be one of the most hard-fought in an entire game. The fact that getting this bascially gives you Hoover "for free" means that, in my mind, it makes no sense to include Hoover among the best Wonders; the Theory of Evolution gives two Wonders in one neat little package.

2. The Pyramids

It's effects are such that, even if you do not get to build it yourself but have to capture it, it is still useful long after it was completed. Whereas all other Wonders have a "shelf life" (consider Sun Tzus': it's great during the Medieval age, but not at all important during the Industrial), the Pyramids will keep paying off all game long. For instance, far-flung corrupt cities which only deserve irrigation and specialists are now always "productive" in half the time it would normally take. And if you do manage to secure it yourself early (maybe ultra-early, with a Great Leader!) your huge pop advantage will lead you to a very strong position.

3. The Great Library

The entire early-game can revolve around the decision to secure this Wonder. Cost-wise it often nets the best returns until Leonardo's and Smith's, which is saying a lot because everything (such as cash flow) is so much more important during the early stages of a given game. Certainly it is possible to keep up in techs without this Wonder, but the point is that by building The Great Library you get rich too. This Wonder is the warmonger's delight, since you can just forget about research completely and have enough cash for upgrades. Many people discount this Wonder because it is a "gamble": if you go for it and miss it, you'll be hard-pressed to catch up in techs. But this is untrue, since you can typically buy yourself into tech partiy with all the Gold you've saved up.


That the three Wonders I listed are not necessary for a successful game is IMO good game design. The Great Lighthouse clearly deserves an honorable mention as being the only necessary Wonder on certain maps (just imagine an Archipelago MP game). Fortunately, on most maps, The Great Lighthouse provides a nice advantage, but not one that wins the game all by itself.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 12-05-2003 at 21:09

	12-05-2003 20:42									#35
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quote: Pyramid and Sistine: Not only are they one of the best "gives effect to whole civ" wonder, They depend on which continent it is on.. So its important that this wonder is on my continent. I usually try to build it. Pyramid I often leave it to my luck... Sometimes AIs dont build it right away, or even better its on my continent

Sistine is not continent-only like the Pyramids. Bach is.

-Arrian

	13-05-2003 07:36									#36
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I won't agrgue that Adams is a must, but I will try very hard to get it. At that stage in the game, you could make the case that no wonder is fatal and I do not intend to miss Hoover or ToE if I can avoid it, but I love to get the cash from Adams none the less.
If anything it is more valueable in CivIII has it pays a lot of maint.

	13-05-2003 09:09									#37
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I place far more value on the early wonders that will help put me in a winning position. I find that by the industrial era the game is usually won or lost. If I am in a winning position then the Industrial Age wonders are merely a bonus. If I am stuffed the wonders won't help me enough. Few of my games are still close by this time.

By the middle ages it is normally apparent whether I am likely to win or lose meaning medieval wonders can turn the game but often I am in a position to get those middle ages wonders partly because I have Collusus or Great Library or Pyramids. (But Sistine and Bach are great, Leos is very useful, Smiths is very useful).

It is very rare for modern wonders to make any difference to the outcome (apart from UN obviously).

For these reasons I say the Collusus is normally far more useful than Adam Smiths, that boost to ancient gold is so very valuable as to make the game much easier (and thus easier to get things such as Smiths).

As for the Pyramids, need I say more?

	14-05-2003 02:57									#38
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Best to have:
1.) Pyramids (Expand! Expand! Expand!)
2.) Collusus (Get the $$ early)
3.) Great Library (Tech catch up can swing the game)
4.) Adam Smith (Huge savings can be applied various ways.)

Must have for me:
1.) Great Library (Even odds on tech in ancient era can set the tone with AI civs through middle ages)
2.) Leonardo's (Okay...I'm a warmonger...I admit it)
3.) Smith's (The extra gold gives my Civ a boost for the home stetch)
4.) ToE (If the game is still going...it won't be long when I get this wonder)

	14-05-2003 03:20									#39
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I still think colossuss is the most important. Everything else, you can just steal it.

	14-05-2003 03:29									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I still think colossuss is the most important. Everything else, you can just steal it.

I think it depends on where you are in the tech race. Stealing the GL doesn't give you the techs that building it does. If you are even in the tech fight then the collossus is the way to go. A good argument could be made for Pyramids over eithier on a particular map though.

	14-05-2003 05:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I still think colossuss is the most important. Everything else, you can just steal it.

I think the Colussus is one of the few wonders that will be very, very useful at ANY difficulty level on ANY map in ANY situation and it comes so early. Umh, that huge early boost to commerce/science can really to be used, build up that city population, put roads around it and watch the gold roll in.

	14-05-2003 05:48									#42
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I think it depends on where you are in the tech race. Stealing the GL doesn't give you the techs that building it does. If you are even in the tech fight then the collossus is the way to go. A good argument could be made for Pyramids over eithier on a particular map though.

who says its for tech? regardless of whether I have GL or not. I put the tech slide at 0% (with one einstein doing all my research )

Consider Colossus a "mini-GA that lasts till Industrial age. Except it doesnt affect production. and its localized in one city... err nevermind. I consider it a mini GA... thats all that matters.