05-05-2003 07:05									#1
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Pick 4 wonders which you think are the most powerful and say why.

For me...

Pyramids: This is a nasty one. Growth goes through the roof, making your empire much more flexible.

Hoover: Free production is always nice.

Sun Tzu/Leo's combo: I combined them because these two wonders work way too well together. Get them both and your military will be so flexible that it's not even close to fair to your opponents.

	05-05-2003 07:58									#2
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I'm rarely able to bag pyramids (Just did today though!), so I bank on the Great Library to keep up. The Pyramids are my unfailing prebuild for it. Zero research and tech parity for an age are too good to pass up.

	05-05-2003 08:01									#3
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I would say that the early wonders have a massive advantage over the later wonders. This is because an ancient wonder can put you in a winning position whereas by the time you get to the modern age the game is probably won or lost so even the most valuable modern wonders are unlikely to change the outcome.

I can not nominate "the big four" because that depends upon my situation, my strategy and difficulty level but I shall make an attempt anyway.

The value of the Great Library increases as the difficulty level increases. It is useless to me at Chieftain but VERY valuable at Emperor.

The Pyramids are useful at all levels for the growth boost but at the higher levels this is partly offset by increased unhappiness problems. Also offset by the fact that a city that has hit its' limits has no use for granary, need aqueducts pronto and sewers are in the very distant future.

Leo's shop of horrors is great for half price upgrades, saves a ton of gold. Leos value increases as the difficulty level rises. At lower levels you can often send obsolete units off to war. Sun Tze, with its free barracks, is good for warmongers but not particularly useful for a peaceful player because units can be moved to a city with a barracks for an upgrade.

Bach's and Sistine Chapel are both extremely valuable for the massive happiness boost and they come in the middle ages thus early enough to make a major contribution to the outcome of the game.

Collosus is very useful if you pile in the aqueduct and money and science improvements ASAP for a great boost to science and money. (Perhaps not one the "big four wonders" but comes close). Move heaven and earth to add Copernicus and Newton to this city.

The Hanging Gardens are very useful at the higher levels, an extra happy citizen in every city.

If I could be guaranteed my choice of wonders I would be inclined towards:
1. Great Library (indispensable to me at higher levels)
2. Hanging Gardens (Bach and Sistine are unquestionably much more valuable but they come so much later)
3. Collosus (great early boost which can be parlayed into enduring advantage)
4. Leo's cut price upgrades

Caveat: On an archipelago map the Great Lighthouse might be the most valuable wonder but that depends very much on the geography of a particular map. Useless on pangea though.

	05-05-2003 08:26									#4
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1) DEFINITELY the pyramids although not always attainable (lucky if your neighbor gets it, then you can steal it! )

2) Great Library also helps alot to hoard $$ on the higher difficulty levels.

3) Hoover Dam. Production surge

3) JS Bach. 2 happy people really help

4) Colossus/Copernicus/Newton's if you can get as many of those, and better yet if they are on the same city

	05-05-2003 10:20									#5
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Umh, map size and configuration enters into valuation of wonders I think.

For example, on a tiny archipelago map Hoover Dam may not be worth building as it gives a boost to cities on the same continent whereas you are scattered over a number of little islands.

Pyramids are definitely more valuable on the larger maps because there are more cities to have a free granary. Pyramids are no big deal on a tiny 80% water world.

Some wonders give benefits to ALL cities and some only to cities on the same continent so it is relevant whether you are on a pangea or archipelago map.

The Collusus derives part of its value from the possibility that you may get Copernicus and Newton in that same city. That it is one awesome research monster. (If you can do this you could probably go up a level).

I think there is also a synergy between Leos and Sun Tze.

	05-05-2003 12:19									#6
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For me it has to be;

1) Hoover's (at least when it boosts enough cities to be cheaper than individual hydro dams).

2) Adam Smiths. This will save more gold than Leo's ever can.

3) Pyramids. Early boost to pop makes the Great Library pointless (unless I want to capture it to regain tech).

4) Toss up between Sistine and JS Bach's. The latter gives a bigger bonus but needs a cathedral in a city to work.

Mind you, I usually don't build them (except with GLs). Capture is so much cheaper, even if I don't get the culture.

	05-05-2003 13:03									#7
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I think most of us agree that without either The Great Library or The Pyramids, a considerable amount of luck (or skill) is required to prevail at higher difficulty levels.

This week-end I played a huge map, continents, 16 civs, Emperor game, and managed to build The Great Library without a leader, by just denying to trade literature until the wonder was nearing completion. The Pyramids however, as in most games I have played so far, were far beyond reach, and only attainable with a very early leader. To make a long story short, I consider The Great Library my top priority and The Pyramids are not in the top-4! - Sorry !! But in terms of power, The Pyramids are probably number one.

My top-4 POWER list:
1) The Pyramids
2) The Great Library
3) Forbidden Palace (you just said wonders!!)
4) The Hoover Dam

My top-4 PRIORITY list:

1) The Great Library (I can't live without it)
2) Forbidden Palace
3) The Hoover Dam (This marks the victory for me - any enemy will be overrun with artillery and tanks within a short while)
4) Theory of Evolution (This brings me in the lead of the tech race)

Actually, in most games I don't build any more great wonders, except in late game if I get a leader, and a great wonder is available (and it's just great if you know that other civs have been building this wonder for a long time ).

	05-05-2003 18:24									#8
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Much depends on the map size, the land configuration and the difficulty level.

On archipelago and small continents/big islands at Monarch and Emperor level I would say:

1. Great Library: you can cash in gold for later short-turn research.
2. Great Lighthouse: forget about playing on archipelago if you don't have it
3. Adam Smith: no upkeep costs for harbors, airports, commercial docks, marketplaces, banks etc. (about 15 gold saved per turn/per city)
4. Hoover Dam: you can forget all the coal, nuclear, solar, wind, biomasse and other x-plants

Just behind:
5. Theory of Evolution: gives you the tech lead if you need it.
6. The UN: yes, go for the space race and lose the game diplomatically, will you?

	05-05-2003 18:55									#9
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Totally depends. The Pyramids are almost always powerful, but I almost never am willing to invest in building them. I tend to be very generous when trading masonry to my neighbors, though

The Lighthouse can be a lifesaver, but only on certain maps.

The Library can also be huge, but the last time I built it, I didn't get a single tech from it.

Sun Tzu is nice, but I think it's more of a convenience thing than anything else. Come on, admit it, most of us like it because you can just hit shift+U and *presto* your upgrading is done.

Leo's is big, but much more so for the warmonger than the builder. Since I'm a warmonger, I love it.

Sistine is awesome, especially if you're religious. 6 content in each city with a cathedral. Nice.

Bach is also awesome, and is particularly great if you're not religious & most or all of your empire is on one continent.

Smith is a must-have. Free harbors, markets, banks, stock exchanges, commercial docks, and airports.

Hoover... I can't imagine not having it. Then again, I honestly can't imagine not getting ToE either. That would be awful.

The UN, though I never intend to use it, is necessary for me so to prevent being voted down by the AI civs I've been smacking around.

Not that it really matters that late in the game, but the Internet is pretty powerful.

But if I had to list 4?

Pyramids, Sistine, Smith, Hoover.

-Arrian

	05-05-2003 19:48									#10
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Top four? Hmmm....

Pyramids is a lock.
Leo's because I like to wage war.
ToE because if the game is still going this late on I must need some help.
Sistine because it means I can build Cathedrals and almost forget about happiness problems.

	05-05-2003 21:48									#11
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UN: I often either need it to win or not to lose.
Pyramids.
ToE: if you're behind, this is normally enough to catch up. Even if you're ahead, this is often victory 8 turns sooner.
Colossus: This doesn't really hold up a swordsman or horseman rush but is still good for science in the Industrial age.

Runners up:

5. Great Lighthouse
6. J. S. Bachs
7. Hoover Dam
8. Great Library: sometimes nice but you only really need it if you're on an island and even then the Lighthouse is often more important.

	05-05-2003 21:52									#12
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As Arrian said, PTW has made Adam Smith's absolutely essential. It may well be the best wonder. I mean, come on, you don't always build a cathedral in every city, right? And Hydro Plants don't do much to help those tiny corrupt border towns, do they? But marketplaces? Banks? Harbors? You build those EVERYWHERE, man.

	05-05-2003 22:54									#13
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Hard one... It depends on a lot of factors. Like, if I'm playing an earth map and start in Europe, Africa or Asia, the Pyramids and GL is a must. The GL not only cause of the techs, but the culture as well. But ok, here it is

1.Pyramids or The Great Library
If I don't get both, I'll get one of them
2.Leo's good ol' workshop
I missed it by a few turns in my current game to my neighbour Greece and I really feel the difference! They've been too powerful to launch an attack uppon, but soon I'll have Panzers!
3.Sistine
Happiness, give me happiness!
4.Hoovers
A real boost to my production

By having these, I gain quite easily the others. I'll go for ToE as well to get an early start on Hoovers. Oh, and I've moved Longevity to Sanition, meaning this one is important as well, no matter if you go warmongering or not

	05-05-2003 23:54									#14
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Okay... that's what I get for not reading the first post carefully. If I pick four...

G. LIbrary, Pyramids, Theory of Evolution, Sistine

	06-05-2003 16:44									#15
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Best four wonders, for my money:

1. Pyramids. Since learning how to use the luxury slider, I'm convinced there isn't a better wonder for the human in the game (well, unless you are playing on a tiny map, 80% water, islands, as previously mentioned). But for standard continents and up, this is the best.

2. Great Library. As long as you have contact with a reasonable number of civs. Basically works as an early substitue for Leo's, allowing you to hoard cash for upgrading to knights, primarily. Very good for warmongers.

3. Sistine Chapel. Or possible Bach's.. Whichever, I'd like to get at least one of them, preferably both if at all possible. But usually I'm too busy researching good trading techs to keep up in the tech race to be able to spend time researching music theory before the AI does.

4a. Adam Smith's. The money saved here counts for the upkeep of a lot of units. Plus, im the industrial era it is common to run at 100% science, and I just hate knowing that I'm spending 2 gpt for each bank and getting no benefit. Much easier to live with if they are free.

4b. Theory of Evolution, aka Hoover Dam. When I get the ToE I always take atomic theory and electronics as the free techs, which pretty much guarantees getting Hoover, so it is essentially a wonder which gets you two nice expensive techs and a free hydro dam in every city. Must have.

	06-05-2003 22:33									#16
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With a big grain of salt that it all depends on the specific game and map . . .

. . . in no particular order:

Pyramids
Sun Tzu's
Adam Smith's
Hoover Dam

Seems I have a yen for maintenance-free city improvements

Catt

	06-05-2003 23:12									#17
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I think with good reason, Catt. Think about it this way. Not only do you get free city improvements and/or no-upkeep city improvements (depends on the wonder), you get the benefits of that EVERY TURN. In addition to whatever the free building (if you get one, i.e. from anything but Adam Smith's) does, you also recoup the gold cost you WOULD have spent on upkeep, PER improvement, PER city. Given the size of most empires I've seen favored by players, that's a pretty hefty sum. You also get the opportunity cost of not having to build the improvements yourself, saving the shields and time.

The long-term benefits are... well... incalculable.

Smith's doesn't actually GIVE you a free improvement, meaning you get no opportunity cost savings, but the sheer number of improvements it covers means you don't have to CARE. If it only covered Marketplaces and Banks, that would be one thing. Given all it covers in PTW, it's an immeasurable benefit and might even make building lots of coastal cities a viable concept. I tend to stray from coastal cities... but with free marketplace/bank/harbor/stock exchange/commercial dock, you're looking at real cash cows. Season to taste with the Colossus and perhaps, if you're very lucky, Copernicus/Newton's...

	06-05-2003 23:18									#18
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quote: I tend to stray from coastal cities... but with free marketplace/bank/harbor/stock exchange/commercial dock, you're looking at real cash cows. Season to taste with the Colossus and perhaps, if you're very lucky, Copernicus/Newton's...

Definitely. I had such a city in my last game. Perhaps I'll dig up a screenshot (minus the commercial dock, I hadn't gotten there yet). The SuperScienceCity isn't quite what it was in CivII, but it can still be very nice.

By the way, speaking of the Colossus... I think it is one of the most cost effective wonders in the game. Think about it! +1 commerce per tile until flight. Get that city up to size 12, and that's +12 base commerce/turn for a very long time (minus some to corruption, let's say 1-2). So +10 base commerce/turn (more, once you build a hospital & boost the city's size again) until Flight. For a 200 shield investment. Not too shabby.

I really like the Colossus.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 00:53									#19
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I too am a big fan of the Colossus. Its unique mix of the 3 traits (com/exp/rel) can be a real boon to any number of civs hoping to get their GA through wonder building. Unfortunately I have to avoid it like the plague when playing the English and Indians (amongst others) as would trigger it far too early.

	07-05-2003 02:14									#20
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That's the downside to it, no doubt about it. It triggers GAs for too many civs, especially in concert with some other desirable wonders.

I think they outta drop either "religious" or "expansionist" from the Colossus.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 07:18									#21
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Hmm.....in the most recent games ( monarch and 1 emporer, just started my first Deity level game ) I've played, the most key great wonders have been:

1.) Great Library, I warmonger too much and build science infrastructure too little

2.) Sistine Chapel, the extra happiness definitely helps during wars while in Republic or Democracy

3.) Leonardo's Workshop, again, twice as many upgrades for the same price = lots of warmongering

4.) Adam's Smith and Hoover are a tie... Production or money

I can almost always get all of these four ( or five ) on Monarch, and most of them I got on Emporer ( missed Adam Smith's ). I usually play militaristic, so Sun Tzu's isn't really worth the shields and time.

	07-05-2003 08:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Sun Tzu is nice, but I think it's more of a convenience thing than anything else. Come on, admit it, most of us like it because you can just hit shift+U and *presto* your upgrading is done. -Arrian

Yes. The shift+U = presto is what makes this very, very attractive otherwise I might not build it.

	07-05-2003 15:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian That's the downside to it, no doubt about it. It triggers GAs for too many civs, especially in concert with some other desirable wonders. -Arrian

Yep,

With my French, Colossus+Pyramids=GA much too soon.

Then you have to choose: you can go for the Colossus, Pyramids, GLighthouse and GLibrary, but then, when do you REX?

	07-05-2003 21:30									#24
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Sun Tzu's is actually really, really helpful in conquests. Remember that units in a city with a barracks heal in a single turn once the city is out of resistance. I normally like to rush a temple in new cities to ensure a culture spread, but without Sun Tzu's I must also either withdraw my troops to the nearest stronghold with a barracks, or else rush a barracks in the new city and keep my troops around even longer. Inconvenient as heck. With Sun Tzu's, I've already got a barracks waiting for me, so my units can heal up and keep fighting just as soon as resistance is crushed.

That said, I almost always steal Sun Tzu's rather than build it.

	07-05-2003 21:52									#25
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Sun Tzu: Agreed. Crucial for me. I prefer to bombard cities for a few turns in hopes of destroying the barracks and reducing the effective strength of any units the AI produces in that city afterward. And in a highly mobile front using fast movers, I use wounded units to stave off resistance in cities, then put them back into attack once healed and the slow moving defensive units arrive.

Favorite wonders:
1. GL
2. Sun Tzu
3. Leonardo's Workshop
4. Adam Smith's

All wonders (GL notwithstanding) geared to basically to build better, cheaper, more effective units.

Hoover barely missed the list. Great wonder, and I always try to get it, but it comes late enough that it isn't crucial. Colossus barely missed as well.

	08-05-2003 02:40									#26
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as a more builder type, i don't really care about leo's. sun tzu however is pretty, but not vital.

my preference:
1. Adam Smith's: save cost of marketplace (1gpt) in every city, harbors in (1gpt) all coastal cities and banks and stock exchanges (2 gpt) in the larger cities... that's approx. 5 gold in average per turn per city... so easily 100 gold or more each turn (and, it motivates to build banks and stock exchanges which anyway bring more cash).
2. Pyramids: great, no further explanaintion needed. i don't usually get it because my expansion isn't fast enough if my best city is building this. but it's a must on large maps!
3. Sistine's Chapel: get 3 less unhappy people in all larger cities (with cathedrals)... also, great for culture
4. Theory of Evolution: if you time it right, you can get the "expensive" techs (atomic theory and electronics) for free and you'll surely get hoover's dam (which would be number 5 on my list, but only worth it on larger landmasses)

the great library only once really helped me (slingshot through medieval ages), but usually i either am not far behing the AI, too near to education (scientific civs mostly get monotheism, that's just 2 techs away from an obsolete GL). in easier games i sometimes just build it so no other civ gets it

oh, and the colossus is wonderful in one of the core cities, but usually my coastal lack production to get the wonder.

	08-05-2003 14:27									#27
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- Hoover Dam on large continent
- Sistine Chapel - gotta keep em happy
- Theory of evolution - keep me ahead of the competition AND I get to choose the direction...
- Collossus - if I have a suitabe city

I dont like the Pyramids cause a lot of population early on just creates a lot of unrest and the granary is not that expensive to build if I really need it.

	08-05-2003 14:51									#28
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1. Great Library - it's really hard to keep up with Research at the higher difficuiltly levels
2. Collossus - Did not understand the benefit of Collossus until I play Greece in the OCC. It's awesome, adding so much Commerce every turn until Flight.
3. TOE - to catch up/move ahead in Industrial Age
4. Hoover Dam - production boost

Close runners up,
Pyramid - I can't build both GL and Pyramid in higer difficuilty, so it's GL for me.
Lighthouse - Depending on Maps
Adam Smith - saves lot of $. But the Adam Smith in Civ II is more powerful.

Actually, by looking at the preference posted, you can actually tell whether one is a warmonger or builder

	09-05-2003 03:32									#29
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My ranking:

Colossus: You call yourself a warmonger? An ultra early aggressive player? Then colossus is da shizzle my man. You get extra commerce. Nothting beats that. My main objective is to always survey the area for nice coastal city sites w/ possibly fishes covering the coastal city squares. I dont mind the early GA. In fact to me in feels just in time (cauz Im ultra early aggressive type of guy... )

All other wonders are not important to me. Most wonders that give effect to particular cities can be avoided. Those wonders that give effect to the civ as whole does not matter if I build it. So I usually try to put them off as much as I can. So my second and third best wonder would be:

Pyramid and Sistine: Not only are they one of the best "gives effect to whole civ" wonder, They depend on which continent it is on.. So its important that this wonder is on my continent. I usually try to build it. Pyramid I often leave it to my luck... Sometimes AIs dont build it right away, or even better its on my continent.

	09-05-2003 18:41									#30
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Sun Tzu, Leo's, Hoover, Smiths. close 5th is Evolution.