06-05-2003 07:38									#1
	Building Pyramids Under Deity Got spare money?

I've been experimenting with building the Pyramids in Deity games. Under Monarch and Emperor, the Pyramids come pretty naturally without resorting to extreme behavior.

But under Deity, building the Pyramids is fraught with difficulty. Even if I play an industrious civ and only build two Warriors before I switch to the Pyramids, it's not a sure thing. If I take the time to build a Settler first, the chance goes way done.

Then, even when I do build the Pyramids, I find myself hemmed in most of the time able to squeak out only about 6-12 cities without going to war.

So...what do you do? Conquer a city with the Pyramids? Build it right off? Something else? Not bother with it?

- TT

	06-05-2003 08:47									#2
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Not bother with it. Grab some land.

	06-05-2003 10:09									#3
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Not bother with it. Grab some land.

Correct. It's a lost cause, and you're only hurting your REX effort, which is vital to winning on deity.

	06-05-2003 11:22									#4
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Unless I get a Leader, I am happy to get two Ancient wonders. After PTW it got a lot harder IMO.
It takes a super start for me to do more than 2 without a leader on a standard map. If I tried, I would suffer some place else and I am not guarantee to get the wonder I am trying to get. I can't risk it.

	06-05-2003 16:38									#5
	Got spare money?

It is possible with good start terrain. Having 2 game sqaures and a couple of hills to mine makes it possible within an Industrious civ.

Apart from that, without a GL, it's almost impossible. I would say impossible but I'm just average at the early game.

	06-05-2003 19:41									#6
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1. Pyramids = 400 shields
2. Granary + 7 settlers + 13 warriors = 400 shields
3. Barracks + 3 settlers + 9 Horsemen/Swordmen = 400 shields

The second and third options look a lot better, considering how fast the AI expands.

	06-05-2003 20:00									#7
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It's not quite that straight forwards though. A city that is building pyramids is going to end up quite a large city before the build is complete. A city that is pumping out settlers and warriors - even with a granary - is not going to produce as many shields in the same time frame.

And although having 30 horsemen is better than having 20 of them, if 20 are enough to beat back all the local AIs into punchbag status early on, then the city that was producing the extra 10 horsemen may be better spent producing a wonder.

Of course, it depends a lot (as always) on the game situation - closeness of neighbours, size of continent, do you have any good settler pumps in your first few cities, etc.

	07-05-2003 05:44									#8
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vulture you have a point, but it actually suggest another serious problem for the early wonder at deity.
Happy citizens. Your city will be forced to do something to keep the people happy and that will be a cost that could be doing something better.
Building the settlers/troops means you keep the pop down and easy to make happy.
Once you have some lux and temple and such then you can handle a larger city size and look to make a wonder.
Later having those units means, the AI will be less inclinded to see you as a patsy. You may even be able to use them to hurt another civ.

	07-05-2003 06:04									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW 1. Pyramids = 400 shields 2. Granary + 7 settlers + 13 warriors = 400 shields 3. Barracks + 3 settlers + 9 Horsemen/Swordmen = 400 shields The second and third options look a lot better, considering how fast the AI expands.

I definitely agree that that the Pyramids is not the best option. I'm just experimenting with different ways to play.

Even when I do get the Pyramids built and end up with less than a dozen cities, I usually can muster a win from the situation. I like playing that kind of tight game; it's a real challenge.

- TT

	07-05-2003 06:10									#10
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Replying to vmxa1's and vulture's discussion, I agree that the value equation is not simple at all.

Having a big city early is not that much of a hardship, though. If you have a luxury in your radius, you can get a size 11 city with 20-30%. And, in the case of building Pyramids, it cranks down in pop pretty quickly afterwards.

I played one game where I had the whole continent to myself and simply exploded after building the Pyramids. I can't say that I wouldn't have done as well just building Granaries when needed, but since I was all alone, I probably wouldn't have research Pottery myself.

This game was with Carthage and I was researching straight to Currency and Construction. Turned out great, but it is the exception.

- TT

	07-05-2003 07:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There is one alternative to the problem of not being able to expand on diety when making a a early wonder.

Consider the possibility of picking a expansionist civilization and hunting down those tribes. You end up getting a 1/4 chance of getting a settler as long as your city is not making one. Obviously this has a drawback that you might find the settler far from your capital, but can make this delay more hospitable.

If one were to try this, you might want to make two scouts. In this way, you will explore and find those tribes twice as fast. But be careful, in games other then sedentary, those barbarians can be very annoying when moving your scouts around.

-ronnie

	07-05-2003 08:49									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Forget about the Pyramids in Deity, better REX like there's no tomorrow. If there's one ancient era wonder I'd try to get its the Great Library and in some cases the Colossus.

	07-05-2003 10:29									#13
	Let me rephrase my question...as a challenge Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I hear you all loud and clear. Under Deity, building the Pyramids is not the best option. There are lots of other things you can do to improve your chance of winning.

So, let's back up a second and assume you're looking for a challenge.

Let's call this a PyrCC (A Pyramid City Challenge). Heh.

The big rule is:

You can't have a second city until you have built the Pyramids. No Settlers from huts, no Culture flip, no nothing. Sound like fun?

Other rules are are:
1) Standard Map
2) Raging Barbs
3) Any Land Mass and Climate
4) Any Civ
5) Seven rivals
6) All Victory Conditions enabled
7) No accelerated production
8) Deity is preferred, but you can play at any level

We're looking for earliest Victory no matter of what type. Cultural, Spaceship, Diplomatic, or Conquest are fine. Just get the "Victory Screen" to show us the money.

Spin a start and see how it goes. Keep a log if you can.

I think I'll start playing now.

- TT

	07-05-2003 12:06									#14
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I will be interest in some AAR's, but right now I am trying to finsh Nightmare mode with a Druid and jsut got into Act III.

	07-05-2003 12:39									#15
	Re: Let me rephrase my question...as a challenge Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck I hear you all loud and clear. Under Deity, building the Pyramids is not the best option. There are lots of other things you can do to improve your chance of winning. So, let's back up a second and assume you're looking for a challenge. Let's call this a PyrCC (A Pyramid City Challenge). Heh. The big rule is: You can't have a second city until you have built the Pyramids. No Settlers from huts, no Culture flip, no nothing. Sound like fun? Other rules are are: 1) Standard Map 2) Raging Barbs 3) Any Land Mass and Climate 4) Any Civ 5) Seven rivals 6) All Victory Conditions enabled 7) No accelerated production 8) Deity is preferred, but you can play at any level We're looking for earliest Victory no matter of what type. Cultural, Spaceship, Diplomatic, or Conquest are fine. Just get the "Victory Screen" to show us the money. Spin a start and see how it goes. Keep a log if you can. I think I'll start playing now. - TT

Why don't you post this as a separate thread for a future AU game?

	07-05-2003 14:18									#16
	Re: Let me rephrase my question...as a challenge Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck I hear you all loud and clear. Under Deity, building the Pyramids is not the best option. There are lots of other things you can do to improve your chance of winning.

I disagree. Building the Pyramids on Deity can really help you win - it will certainly give your Civ an early boost which few other early wonders (Collosus is the exception) can.

I'm not saying I always build them - like I said in my first post, it really depends on start location. If you don't have enough city space when they are built, they are a waste - if you have lots of really small cities that need rapid growth they are a mighty weapon.

One tip: sell all your hand built granaries the turn before completion, because you can't sell them afterwards.

	11-05-2003 02:35									#17
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Thanks Mountain Sage. Trying an AU game with this theme is an excellent idea. I've had a bunch of fun playing this from a random map. I'd have to think about how to best package it for an AU game. Any ideas?

And, in response to Cruddy's last post. Yea, start location is key, as always. I've found, though, that by the time you *know* for sure you have a big wide open continent, enough time has passed that your chances of building the Pyramids are greatly reduced.

With that uncertainty as a given, the risk of losing 300 shields because the Egyptians beat you to the Pyramids cannot be ignored. When it works, though, it is a killer.

Talk to you all later.

- TT

	11-05-2003 05:12									#18
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On Deity, I find that if you don't constantly build mlitary units and settlers in the early going the AI civs will gang you because you are too weak. A military civ has time to build the cheap barracks and that's about it. How do you get around that? Reloaders need not reply.

	11-05-2003 06:11									#19
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Kirby, what map size are you playing? I agree if you are stuck on a tiny pangea with Germany and Zululand you will have problems building the Pyramids.

	11-05-2003 06:48									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kirby On Deity, I find that if you don't constantly build mlitary units and settlers in the early going the AI civs will gang you because you are too weak. A military civ has time to build the cheap barracks and that's about it. How do you get around that? Reloaders need not reply.

I play mostly on a standard map and find that when I pursue the Pyramids on Deity I usually end up playing a very tight builder-style game. Most builders will tell you that a small military is sufficient as long as you maintain good relations with your rivals.

Carthage is an excellent Civ to try for the Pyramids and its UU, the Numidian Mercenary, complements the builder style quite well. Two or three per city is enough to avoid a war well into the Middle Ages.

BTW: Carthage can be a dynamic military force, too. But, that is a whole different story.

I don't know if I answered your question or not. Let me know.

- TT

	11-05-2003 07:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck Most builders will tell you that a small military is sufficient as long as you maintain good relations with your rivals. - TT

There's the rub, not that easy to do with civs that start out annoyed at you.

I play mostly on the 8 player map.

edit: default settings

	11-05-2003 07:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kirby There's the rub, not that easy to do with civs that start out annoyed at you. I play mostly on the 8 player map.

Yea, but that's not too big of a rub if you ask me. As a builder, I'd rather manage their attitude than fight their military.

I know, I know: "Easier said than done." Yep, I agree.

- TT

	11-05-2003 07:39									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Besides that, you can't outbuild the AI's resource cheats, at least I can't anyway. The only way I can see to win on Deity (no mods or cheats) is to war your way to victory on pangea. There is no way that I can see to keep up with the AI's on other continents. Most of the "sure fire way to beat deity" strategies are pretty iffy IMO.

Last edited by Kirby on 11-05-2003 at 07:44

	11-05-2003 08:50									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kirby Besides that, you can't outbuild the AI's resource cheats, at least I can't anyway. The only way I can see to win on Deity (no mods or cheats) is to war your way to victory on pangea. There is no way that I can see to keep up with the AI's on other continents. Most of the "sure fire way to beat deity" strategies are pretty iffy IMO.

I agree that under Deity the deck is stacked in the AI's favor, but getting a win is still very doable. People do it every day. No mods, no cheats.

Also, a lot of the "sure fire" articles were written when tech-whoring and pop-rushing were much more powerful than they are now. Those articles still provide a sound basis for strategy, but some of the particulars have changed.

- TT

	12-05-2003 15:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck Thanks Mountain Sage. Trying an AU game with this theme is an excellent idea. I've had a bunch of fun playing this from a random map. I'd have to think about how to best package it for an AU game. Any ideas? - TT

Unfortunately not, I am a newbee in AU games. My 1 gold piece advice would be to post a new thread with your idea and see what happens. If enough people show interest, the real AU specialists like Dominae etc. will probably make it 'official'.
Good luck.