 |
| |
|
|
vondrack
|
 |
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:27
|
|
Yep, moving City6 onto the hill SE (3) from where the screenshot shows it sounds like a good idea - I talked about it with nye in the chatroom... his intention was to speed up the iron connection, using the city as a road tile. But if we road through one jungle and one hill, we should still be able to connect the iron in time (14 turns from now - 1t to move W4 to jungle, 5t to road it, 1t to move to the northernmost hill, 3t to road it, 1t to move to iron, 3t to road it) and get a defense bonus by building upon a hill. The difference is that a mine being built on the iron hill will be finished a little bit later (2t later, I think).
This also shows that it makes almost no difference if we build the horse city before the iron city (as far as connecting iron is concerned - production-wise, it is better to build City5 first, that's for sure)... as the iron will not get connected much sooner anyway... the difference is 3t max - if we build City6 first and where nye put it - if not (if placing it on the hill SW), then there would be no difference at all.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
notyoueither
|
 |
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:27
|
|
Yes, City 6 goes quite well on the hill. That is where it will most likely end up after talking with vonD. He makes a good case for it.
Trip, I take it that no stack can just show up. That is what the screen is about, yes? By this turn 16 we are racking up commerce pretty good. We could go to 0 research and upgrade warriors. I take it the screen would be falling back towards us, yes? That would be another couple swords on top of the 3 I can see as of turn 18 or so.
As of 18, Ming is doing a merc in 6 (5 after she grows the next step; we can get it to 4 in a bit). City 4 is about to start on Mercs. Poly and Bananatopia could spit out warriors when/if needed. (Cut road to iron, initiate warriors, road rebuilt, upgrades to swords).
But, if Banatopia switched to a barracks... we lose the ability to grow quickly. The decision does not have to be final for some time, and we can get a good idea of CDGs path before the decision is unavoidable. However, if we switch that granery, we are going to be in a huge whole vis-a-vis the other 6 civs. I would really like to avoid it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Trip
|
 |
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:27
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Yes, City 6 goes quite well on the hill. That is where it will most likely end up after talking with vonD. He makes a good case for it. |
And obviously, city 5 belongs near the horses for the exact same reasons that Vondrack pointed out.
quote:
Trip, I take it that no stack can just show up. That is what the screen is about, yes? By this turn 16 we are racking up commerce pretty good. We could go to 0 research and upgrade warriors. I take it the screen would be falling back towards us, yes? That would be another couple swords on top of the 3 I can see as of turn 18 or so. |
If they plant a city further up near us with a road to accompany it, then they can easily cut ~4 turns off of the warning we'd recieve of an incoming attack. The difference ends up being quite large depending on where they put their next city. But we'll have to see.
Any estimates on our commerce? I don't see us going down to 0% research, but if things got desperate enough, I could see it happening. 
quote:
As of 18, Ming is doing a merc in 6 (5 after she grows the next step; we can get it to 4 in a bit). City 4 is about to start on Mercs. Poly and Bananatopia could spit out warriors when/if needed. (Cut road to iron, initiate warriors, road rebuilt, upgrades to swords). |
Do you foresee us going to 100% tax during the war then? If so, that changes things. 
quote:
But, if Banatopia switched to a barracks... we lose the ability to grow quickly. The decision does not have to be final for some time, and we can get a good idea of CDGs path before the decision is unavoidable. However, if we switch that granery, we are going to be in a huge whole vis-a-vis the other 6 civs. I would really like to avoid it. |
That Granary will take ~20 turns to build. That's a lot of extra units. Soon after that 16 turns, (amazingly) we will almost be out of land to improve. The 5 Workers we'll have at that point will probably have no trouble starting on that jungle, especially if Apolyton continues to spit them out at a pretty good rate. Of course, like you said, it's to be avoided if possible, but if they do show up on our doorstep come turn 20, then things could end badly...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
notyoueither
|
|
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:27
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Any estimates on our commerce? I don't see us going down to 0% research, but if things got desperate enough, I could see it happening.
Do you foresee us going to 100% tax during the war then? If so, that changes things. |
17 commerce after upkeep there in 16 turns.
quote:
That Granary will take ~20 turns to build. That's a lot of extra units. Soon after that 16 turns, (amazingly) we will almost be out of land to improve. The 5 Workers we'll have at that point will probably have no trouble starting on that jungle, especially if Apolyton continues to spit them out at a pretty good rate. Of course, like you said, it's to be avoided if possible, but if they do show up on our doorstep come turn 20, then things could end badly... |
As you can see, the granery is finished on turn 16. Actually, it can be finished sooner, and Mingapulco can be closer to 4 pop, because I goosed the food to Mingapulco a little too much and it was going to grow 2 turns before the granery finished. hense it is at 0 gain/loss waiting for the granery to finish. That would give a couple extra turns on a 2 shield tile over a 1 shield, and the granery should have finished last turn if I did not slow the pop growth down.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:27
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
Does this take into consideration pulling all worker's to get the Iron hooked up faster? |
Well, the thing is that we do not gain much by connecting it earlier - we would have (almost) no money to upgrade our warriors and barracks will also take some time to be built... connecting the iron (much) earlier is just overkill - we need iron almost entirely only for warrior-to-swordsman upgrades... until we have money and barracks to upgrade, we do not need it.
Plus, if we divert all or most of our workers there, our "productive" cities will be less productive, having to work unimproved tiles... we are not going to build any swordsmen for the foreseeable future, I take it, as we have warriors enough to upgrade. So it is mostly mercs and mobile units we are going to build - for them, we need no resources or horses, not iron, plus a good shield output.
Besides, if we consider the possibility of CDG showing up early (18t from now) with 5-6 immos, we would be ready. Iron would be connected in 14t max (if going for horse city first and placing iron city on the hill). That would be time enough to upgrade whatever we might need (provided we have the cash - and we would have it, since we would be warned by our screen, shutting our research down).
And another thing to keep in mind - we would prefer having a well roaded battlefield, so that our units gain a broader "range of fire" - that is another reason to not pull all our workers towards the iron. (even though I do admit we will probably not be able to road the frontline of our empire anyway...)
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:27
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Ditching a settler for a merc. OK. For an archer? I need some convincing.
If the war starts now, do we not want the GA sonner rather than later? |
Well, I do not want to sound like I would be eager to build us some archer(s)... but let's make a brief summary of all possible scenarios now:
1) nye is right and Morris is there just by coincidence (= moves this turn)
If this is the case, we simply proceed as planned before. I would just suggest fortifying Hagbart atop of that iron, just for sure... we would basically rule out the possibility that CDG change their minds later on and return to it to make our life more difficult (Morris, a regular warrior, would have only 6.5% chance to defeat fortified Hagbart - as opposed to 25.7% odds against Alva; plus, Hagbart would have a 6.25% chance to generate a GL, if defending successfully).
2) nye is wrong and we open the next save to find Morris fortified on that iron hill
This quite obviously means hostility and war. We would then have two choices:
2a) waive the SE iron and use the Northern deposit.
To connect our Northern iron, we would have to build a colony on it (a city founded next to it would actually take more time and be more costly, as we would have to spend a 30-shield settler and road the mountain, while saving only one hill-road):
2a-1Worker) with 1 worker, we would need 17 "extra" (not planned otherwise) worker-turns and 1 worker (10 shields, 1 pop unit) - 3 times "1t to move, 2t to road", two times "1t to move, 3t to road" and once "1t to move, 1t to found the colony". Total cost: 17 worker-turns, 1 pop unit, 10 shields. Total completion time: 18t from now (1t to finish the road N of Mingapulco first).
2a-2Workers) with 2 workers, we would need 22 "extra" (not planned otherwise) worker-turns and 1 worker (10 shields, 1 pop unit) - twice 3 times "1t to move, 1t to road", two times "1t to move, 3t to road" - and once "1t to move, 1t to found the colony". Total cost: 22 worker-turns, 1 pop unit, 10 shields. Total completion time: 13t from now (1t to finish the road N of Mingapulco first). We would have to assign 1 extra worker to the task (compared to 1. or 2b.)
2b) claim the SE iron forcefully.
Odds of winning (attacking a fortified regular warrior on a hill; if more than 1 unit attack - both attack on the same turn):
code:
regular 10-shield Warrior ........... 25.7%
veteran 10-shield Warrior ........... 38.1%
elite 10-shield Warrior ........... 49.9%
regular 20-shield Archer ............ 56.2%
veteran 20-shield Archer ............ 71.6%
regular 30-shield Merc .............. 56.2%; triggers GA
veteran 30-shield Merc .............. 71.6%; triggers GA
two regular "40-shield" Archers ........... 89.4%
regular+vet "40-shield" Archers ........... 93.9%
two veteran "40-shield" Archers ........... 96.5%
regular 20-shield Archer + elite 10-shield Warrior ..... 88.3%
veteran 20-shield Archer + elite 10-shield Warrior ..... 93.3%
Obviously, archers have the same odds of winning as Mercs, while costing 2/3 of what Mercs cost + do not trigger our GA (which may be good or bad - depends on what we want).
Of all these possibilities, I believe that probably the best one - considering timing and costs - is the one with 1 regular archer and 1 elite warrior. We already have 1 elite warrior (Hagbart), so we'd need just one regular archer. If we change the build in Mingapulco to an archer, he'd be finished in 4 turns (5+3+3*4 shields), then 3 turns to move him SE-SE (3-3) of Bananapolis, 1 turn to attack - 8 turns altogether. Worker would not be done with roading the hill SE-SE (3-3) of Bananapolis yet, so no delay in connecting the iron would be introduced. Chances to win (attacking with Hagbart, if the archer loses): 85.5%. If Morris survives even the combined attack, we may bring in Alva or a Merc (that would have to be some real bad luck, though).
We may lose a 20-shield archer easily (just as easily as we might lose a 30-shield regular Merc, though! veteran Mercs will most probably not be available soon enough to introduce no delay into connecting the SE iron - we would have to get lucky with a barb-related promotion), but if that happened, we'd quite likely win with our elite warrior then.
So, I am not really pushing the idea that much... just showing that building one, even regular archer is not such a nonsense as it might look... using regular Mercs for the assault is quite risky - they are not very suited for attacking a hill-fortified warrior. Veteran Mercs would not be ready soon enough. Plus, a Merc victory triggers our GA - dunno if that's good or bad... I believe we'd be able to outproduce CDG even if they had GA and we'd not... saving our GA for (probably just slightly) later times. I admit that if we decided to use our GA for the war, it would change things a bit - though I would still start the assault on Morris with a regular archer, to make the win of the following Merc as likely as possible.
Last edited by vondrack on 10-05-2003 at 15:36
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:27.
Apolyton Time is 00:27. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
06-05-2003 11:41
|