08-05-2003 15:39									#61
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BTW Trip, how was the map reconstruction done? Did you have to (more or less) do it by handm or can you rip all the map info out of the save? I'm just curious as to what the consequences are going to be for currently invisible strategic resources...

	08-05-2003 19:10									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You have given up on finding the cause of the crash?

No one has been able to get any response from Firaxis, or even an acknowledgment that they would be willing to look into the problem so I would guess this is our only remaining option.

	08-05-2003 19:37									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by [DG]mav_son ....Is there any reward to gain? eg. 1 Mio GP? or evolution theorie?

Or just special mention in the Chronicle.

	08-05-2003 19:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber My guess is that you wrote your name in coast/sea tiles in the middle of the ocean.

Me? Never.

	08-05-2003 19:38									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by vulture BTW Trip, how was the map reconstruction done? Did you have to (more or less) do it by handm or can you rip all the map info out of the save? I'm just curious as to what the consequences are going to be for currently invisible strategic resources...

I ripped the map info. I can give any and all techs to all the teams, so correct resource placement and visibility will not be an issue.

It was fun seeing where all that uranium was though.

	08-05-2003 19:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb No one has been able to get any response from Firaxis, or even an acknowledgment that they would be willing to look into the problem so I would guess this is our only remaining option.

I believe NYE said that someone from Firaxis was looking at it, but I'm not holding my breathe. It would probably take me longer to try and find the problem than to reconstruct the whole game...

	08-05-2003 20:00									#67
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Trip Me? Never.

Come to think about it, you could have also written your name in tundra tiles in the middle of the ocean. Then you could say that you "wrote your name in the snow" like a real man.

	08-05-2003 22:35									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I did some testing last night. I created a scenario with three civs and setup a hostseat game using that scenario with three human players. I just cycled through a lot of turns to see how things happen. This is what I found out.

If there are barbarians in the sight of the last civ to play the turn that civ would see the barbarians move after the turn was played.

Occasionally the greatest civs list would come up for the last civ. (NOTE: that means in our game Lego occasionally gets a tiny piece of intel no one else has ) This occurred after the turn was played and before the barbarians moved (hint, this fits with the time of the crash as described by Vondrack).

I did not duplicate the crash. I didn't really try either.

Based on this test and other things we know about the game here are some events that occur after a turn:

1. Scores are calculated and the histograph information is updated.
   
2. Occasionally a greatest civ list appears.
   
3. Massive barbarian uprising triggered so many turns after a new age is started (I don't remember the actual number of turns).
   
4. Barbarians move.
   

	08-05-2003 23:09									#69
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

HarryH, I guess you did an excellent job!

This is turn #100. It is VERY likely that the problem is with the game trying to display some kind of a list of the greatest civs! It does fit perfectly with the fact that the crash happens after we move all our units and before barbs move - and irrespective of what we do with our units and cities... and we have NEVER had such a list displayed before. Never ever.

nye, can you relay this hint to Firaxis? I believe HarryH may VERY well be right.

I am going to try looking into the files to see if there is something suspicious.

Once again - thumbs up, HarryH!

Note: it is not a massive uprising - those start when the second civ enters a new age (revealed by Soren long time ago).

	08-05-2003 23:18									#70
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Just a sidenote: according to a comment in the Great Books.txt file:

code:
This Popup should appear once every thousand years in the Ancient and Middle Ages 
then every 500 years thereafter.

	08-05-2003 23:39									#71
	Inflate your Upload Space

An idea... a crazy one, but... asleepatwheel, would you be able to cycle through the game since Turn 1? A real drag, I know... but you would just "park" all the civs, so that they do not grow (adding workers to cities, set cities to no growth and wealth) and just keep cycling through the 100 turns...

I would send you our (Lego) Turn 1 outgoing save - if the game still crashed, we would know the problem is most likely with the data we (someone, that is) entered for the "personalization" of our civs. We could then try to use something different for that (shorter words or... dunno...) and see if the game still crashed... if not, it may be enough to edit this information in the savegame with Gramphos editor...?

It's just a stupid idea, I know... but I got quite excited about HarryH's findings, sorry... I feel he really found something out...

	08-05-2003 23:53									#72
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BTW, is Firaxis even trying to help out, have we actually gotten a response from them? I mean, it's not fair that we (well Trip) had to make the whole scenario from scratch when those guys could have probably solved the issue in a jiffy.

ZargonX: go spray paint their offices!!!

Trip: where's the uranium and can GoW have some?

	09-05-2003 00:08									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Quote from NYE on the 5th in another thread:

quote: Received response from Firaxis. They are very busy, but may be able to help. We should not wait up nights though. They are very busy (very) with a major show coming up soon and rumours of a major announcement at that show. I suspect they are already burning midnight oil getting ready.

	09-05-2003 00:12									#74
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Is the personalization info for the civs located in one place here in the forums? I could try setting up another hotseat game using the same info and test tonight.

	09-05-2003 00:13									#75
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MAJOR FIRAXIS ANNOUNCEMENT:

WE SOLVED THE APOLYTON PTWDG BUG!!!!

	09-05-2003 01:06									#76
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack An idea... a crazy one, but... asleepatwheel, would you be able to cycle through the game since Turn 1? A real drag, I know... but you would just "park" all the civs, so that they do not grow (adding workers to cities, set cities to no growth and wealth) and just keep cycling through the 100 turns... I would send you our (Lego) Turn 1 outgoing save - if the game still crashed, we would know the problem is most likely with the data we (someone, that is) entered for the "personalization" of our civs. We could then try to use something different for that (shorter words or... dunno...) and see if the game still crashed... if not, it may be enough to edit this information in the savegame with Gramphos editor...?

I could try that. send it to: smichaelclark @ hotmail.com.

Please send ASAP, because I'm in the midst of a move and will lose internet tomorrow afternoon. I do have time to run through it today or tonight though

I do see one problem, unless I had all the passwords, I would play it using the cheat, meaning the ai would take over after the first turn, so a civ or two could potentially be lost. Of course, this doesn't matter much as lux was lost early anyway

	09-05-2003 01:10									#77
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EDIT: Nevermind.

Last edited by Zero on 09-05-2003 at 01:16

	09-05-2003 05:01									#78
	Notes from an alternate dimension Increase Your PM Length

I've played from 3950 BC and..............

No crash, up through 500ad.

So the bug was something picked up along the way.


Other notes:

Man, I forgot how pathetic the Chieftain AI was, here are some stats:

1. Lego (Me) far in the lead of course
2. GS (of course)
3. Lux (shocking, eh?)
4. Spain (3 cities)
5. Vox 1 city
6. ND 1 city
7. Warmonger 1 city

(and all but the vox of the occ's have been at peace for ever, so n attrition there)

Quite a wide range there

i've seen a bit of everything, wonders built, wars fought, alliances made. yadda yadda, no crashes.

Note: I stopped before getting gunpowder so I wouldn't learn too much

	09-05-2003 08:30									#79
	Re: Notes from an alternate dimension Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel 3. Lux (shocking, eh?)

Hardly. ;P

Map reconstruction completed. All cities, improvements and units placed.

Trying to figure out what to do next. I may talk with Aeson to see what else I can bring over from the save. After that I'll probably send it to each of the teams to make sure everything looks right before making an official version.

Note: It doesn't appear I can set Worker actions any way. This means that all Worker actions will be lost. My apologies for my inability to take care of this...

	09-05-2003 08:50									#80
	Re: Re: Notes from an alternate dimension Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Trip Note: It doesn't appear I can set Worker actions any way. This means that all Worker actions will be lost. My apologies for my inability to take care of this...

Couldn't you make the jobs be completed, and set the worker name to include an instruction it should be fortified for x turns?

And thank you very much. That was a fast reconstruction.

	09-05-2003 08:54									#81
	Re: Re: Re: Notes from an alternate dimension Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Couldn't you make the jobs be completed, and set the worker name to include an instruction it should be fortified for x turns? And thank you very much. That was a fast reconstruction.

Yes, that could be done, but what if a war breaks out (or is already in progress), and a team has access to a road which it wouldn't have for another 2/3/4+ turns in the future?

Good idea though... if there's any possible way to solve this we should try to find it.

	09-05-2003 10:58									#82
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Notes from an alternate dimension Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip Yes, that could be done, but what if a war breaks out (or is already in progress), and a team has access to a road which it wouldn't have for another 2/3/4+ turns in the future? Good idea though... if there's any possible way to solve this we should try to find it.

The honor system should work fine.
The teams promise to "use up" 2 movements whenever they go through that tile.


If it is just general improvements...like a mine, then deduct some shields from the city, (to counter the extra shields the city will get) and also tag the worker as unmoveable.

I think the teams themselves can do this when they get to review the save....and make their requests to Trip.



ie...no road, but I want x extra gold for having to start again.
or...please insert the road, but take x gold away, and I wont move the worker for y turns.


The umpires decision is final...Trip can review each teams request, and decide what they get.

Regs

	09-05-2003 11:08									#83
	Re: Re: Re: Notes from an alternate dimension Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Couldn't you make the jobs be completed, and set the worker name to include an instruction it should be fortified for x turns?

It needs a lot of trust, but it would be a fair solution.

- Finish the improvement
- the teams check with the last save, how many turns the worker-action would have taken
- the worker is not moved, until the action would have ordinary ended


eg. it would be not allowed to pass an early finished road (until it is "finished")

	09-05-2003 11:09									#84
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If a road, etc. wouldn't be finished, teams would be expected to avoid using that tile or to hit the space bar to end units' turns at the time their movement would be exhausted if the tile were not roaded. The bigger complexity might be avoiding letting cities make use of tile improvements until the appropriate time, especially if they need to use the tile in its unimproved state in the interim. But even then, if an improvement is more than half finished, it's fairer to provide access early than to delay access. Edit: Cross-posted with the last two messages.

	09-05-2003 15:24									#85
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Trip- That was quick man. Thank you so much- you've practically saved us from finding something else to do with our time- or heaven forbid, get a life!
Now, we'll just have to find how "creative" you were when reconstructing...

Asleep- your sacrifice will not be forgotten.

	09-05-2003 19:20									#86
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I don't think the 2 or 3 extra gold from finished roads are really gonna make that big a difference on the overall game, will it.
This isn't really a make or break situation IMO.
Let's get on with it...

	09-05-2003 20:22									#87
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Alva, you're just saying that 'cos we've finished 100 new roads this turn

	09-05-2003 20:43									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen ZargonX: go spray paint their offices!!!

I'll chip in for the paint and rotten eggs.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Trip: where's the uranium and can GoW have some?

Didn't you see his post in our team forum about us currently having half the uranium sources in our cultural boundaries already?

	09-05-2003 20:46									#89
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Now keeping these boundaries unitl uranium comes along is a different matter.

	09-05-2003 21:30									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by alva I don't think the 2 or 3 extra gold from finished roads are really gonna make that big a difference on the overall game, will it. This isn't really a make or break situation IMO. Let's get on with it...

I agree with alva. Don't use the movement bonus, but let's not worry about the extra gold. The same is true for mines and irrigation.