07-05-2003 20:42									#31
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So?

	07-05-2003 20:43									#32
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Slowwy

The main thing about NAFTA that chaps my ass is that it has made our country less self-sufficient, and more reliable on international trade and globalization. This is significant because it also makes us more vulnerable from a national security standpoint. With more trade, we have much more uninspected cargo coming in to this country. It's all fun and games until someone sneaks in a nuke, eh? But why let safety cut into the income of venture capitalists and multi-national corporations?

NAFTA, and free-trade in general, is a good thing if only we can balance and outweigh the con's.

	07-05-2003 20:43									#33
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So?

Your statement is biased, because it leaves the impression that the situation is as bad as 30 years ago, which it isn't. It's only 2/3rd the problem.

	07-05-2003 20:45									#34
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quote: OK, now you want me to apologize for being among the at least 85% (or whatever) benefitting from NAFTA

The people that benefit from NAFTA are generally only among the top 1% of income earners. And even in that bracket, the amount that are making money are an even smaller segment of the population.

But DanS likes anything that makes him richer... even at the expense of others.

	07-05-2003 20:46									#35
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Sloww, the article you posted seems to entirely deal with the policies vis-a-vis the war with Iraq and, without explicitly mentioning it, the collapse of the tech-bubble. How do you get anything even remotely associated with NAFTA out of that?

Edit: typos

	07-05-2003 20:47									#36
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The people that benefit from NAFTA are generally only among the top 1% of income earners.

Not so.

	07-05-2003 20:47									#37
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"generally"

	07-05-2003 20:48									#38
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Still not so. Sorry.

	07-05-2003 20:48									#39
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Manufacturing has been declining rapidly for quite some time in the US. The time has passed to worry about losing manufacturing jobs and continue moving into the future. Let's not complain about the progress we are making. Instead let's do more to help the people who are losing there jobs.

	07-05-2003 20:48									#40
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No, Dan. It's worse, like I just pointed out.

I can tell.
You're one of the people that doesn't seem to grasp the concept that manufacturing is what drives a country to the highest levels.
Yeah, I know. ONLY 15% of the working, or not, population is in manufacturing.

Want to be a service industry nation?
Look at the South in the War Between The States.

	07-05-2003 20:50									#41
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You're one of the people that doesn't seem to grasp the concept that manufacturing is what drives a country to the highest levels.

No it doesn't. It's the cush office jobs.

	07-05-2003 20:51									#42
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The problem with something like NAFTA (beyond any wierd little restrictions/subsidies/tariffs that shouldn't be there) is that most people just don't see the positive effects. They're there, but most people aren't going to really get fired up because the cost of consumer goods dropped a bit (especially because, due to inflation, everybody tends to think the cost went up, even if the relative cost versus income dropped). They WILL get fired up, however, if they or someone they know loses his job, and can blame it on NAFTA.

quote: Paul Evans was an information technology manager with a salary in the "high five figures." Now he's out of a job, having suffered a layoff. It couldn't have come at a worse time. His wife, Meryl, who has only a part-time job, gave birth to a baby boy last Monday. They also have a 9-year-old daughter and a 4-year-old son.

That's very sad for the Evans family, but honestly, the tech bubble burst, and I don't see how NAFTA had anything to do with it.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 20:51									#43
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Sloww,

Is Japan at its highest level?

	07-05-2003 20:55									#44
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quote: Look at the South in the War Between The States.

Civil War? Operation Slave Liberation?

Seriously though, Sloww, you are right on.

	07-05-2003 20:57									#45
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I know I am, wise-cracks not withstanding.

	07-05-2003 20:58									#46
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Woah.........don't 'misunderestimate' my position....I am PRO-free trade.

My problem is just that: I AM pro-free trade, and NAFTA is NOT free trade....it's free trade until some American interest group starts *****ing about not be being protected against our 'mighty economy', be it wheat, wood, salmon, or in this case the lowly blueberry.

I want MORE Nafta, and real multilateral nafta, not more protectionism.

I do however agree that Mexico should've been forced to abide by a civilized regulatory regime if they wanted to join, just like the Europunks do.

MtG: Why can't some Mexican legislator with balls do something like declare a 'tax amnesty' (no penalties, no back taxes, everyone starts at the new rate) so they can rewrite, lower, and 'rationalize' their taxes, and everyone can finally take their real incomes out from under the mattress and put it back into the system?

	07-05-2003 21:03									#47
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Why don't they worry about Mexico's water supply?
Their toilets?
Their food?
Their housing.
Their medical facilities.

All on the decline because corporate "Bandits" move to Mexico?
It's like picking Mexico up, just before you slap the crap out of them.
Of course, U.S. manufacturing, all 15% of millions, have already been *****slapped.
Not that THAT matters.

	07-05-2003 21:05									#48
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Seeker: I agree, but I'd like to see the playing field evened. Perhaps a Trade-Alliance or something where nations decide on a global minimum wage. Ideally, I'd like to see free education and health care in the US, then we could do away with the minimum wage altogether, and we could compete with the other countries that are able to pay lower wages. You guys might stereotype me as a "leftist" but I'm more of a capitalist that many self-proclaimed capitalists. I just have unorthodox methods and ideas about how to improve things.

I'd like free-trade in one of two ways:
1. The elimination of minimum wage in the US (only when we have free-education and universal health care for all; and housing subsidies for the really poor.)

2. The institution of a Trade-Alliance-Organization where countries agree on a global minimum wage.

Either way, the playing field needs to be evened. NAFTA had made money for a few, but overall, has weakened our country.

	07-05-2003 21:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Seeker: I agree, but I'd like to see the playing field evened. Perhaps a Trade-Alliance or something where nations decide on a global minimum wage.

We don't have even that in the EU. The only regulation the EU has put on this regard, recently, was to force the 48-hours workweek (a given in every country, except in the UK).
A common minimal wage is exceptionnaly difficult to institute in an organization as heterogeneous as NAFTA, where the US has taken its recent growth from high-tech, whereas Mexico gets some wealth from law-cost industry. To afford a similar minimum wage, Mexico would have to be very attractive to the investors, i.e have a well schooled workforce, have good transport and communication infrastructures, have a good administration etc etc. We are very, very far away from it

	07-05-2003 21:23									#50
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I don't think minimum wages in general are a good idea, and a global one more so.

I am very much in favour of a standard international regulatory agreement, for things like working hours per week, maternity and sick leave, hazardous emissions and waste, safety, etc.

An example: In Korea, there are many illegal migrant workers from Viet Nam and Thailand. They make a wage that a Korean would find shocking, and they basically live in a dorm and never go out. But their tiny Korean wage is 10x what they make back home in a year, they save up and go home 'rich'. They LOVE getting these '****' jobs because from their perspective it's actually a 'dream job'.

The problem is regulatory: i.e. abusive bosses, no severance pay, often no safety glasses or even shoes, crazy 18 hour days sometimes.

"Let the boss decide how much he's willing to pay and see if anyone shows up to take it, but DON'T let the boss abuse his workers" is my view.

	07-05-2003 21:27									#51
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Yeah, a global minimum wage would be my second choice. I'd rather see my #1 suggestion implemented. But regardless, the playing field needs to be evened. As of now, free-trade is mostly a ticket to exploiting cheap labor.

	07-05-2003 21:42									#52
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Cross border trade has BOOMED since NAFTA was introduced. Mexico has increased the most but both Canada and the U.S. have benifited greatly due to the increased trilateral trade.

I wish we could get a few more countries to join.

	07-05-2003 21:51									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yeah, a global minimum wage would be my second choice. I'd rather see my #1 suggestion implemented. But regardless, the playing field needs to be evened. As of now, free-trade is mostly a ticket to exploiting cheap labor.

Sava you'll never see the majority of poor countries agree to this. The one (often only) thing they have going for them is they have lots of people willing to work for next to nothing. If their wages were higher then why would companies bother setting up factories there and risk pissing off the work force back home not to meantion pay the higher transportation costs to get the finished goods to market?

For the most part the 3rd world workers know they have nothing lose and everything to gain so they go along. The protesters who endlessly moan about the world not being a communist utopia and that direct investment hasn't instantly made every place in the world as affluent as Beverly Hills are doing more to harm the world's poor then help them. Every place in the history of the world which has gone from being poor to being rich has gone through the same slow climb out of poverty. The most important thing is to keep good policies in place which encourage trade & investment, discourage corruption, and promote the rule of law. If you do that then the lives of people will improve.

	07-05-2003 21:53									#54
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That's why I like my first idea better. We can create a more socially humane environment while creating a more profitable environment for American companies.

	07-05-2003 21:54									#55
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Oerdin, simply put, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

	07-05-2003 21:55									#56
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(world explodes) I don't think I've ever seen an Oerdin post where I can't find something to disagree with....this is a first...

I must have not understood you.

"That's why I like my first idea better. We can create a more socially humane environment while creating a more profitable environment for American companies."

Yeah...but WTF is a 'more socially humane enivornment' when it's at home?

Sloww:

Surely you don't think that forcing companies to pay out higher wages will somehow result in more jobs??

The reason the migrant workers here(korea) are illegal is (partly) BECAUSE of the min wage.

They want to work and make more money and improve their future, often with fam. and relatives at home. The only thing they have to offer is that they will work cheap and do absolutely anything.

If they were as expensive as Korean unionized workers, why the fork would the company hire them?

End result: the poor guys get jobs that improve their futures, and the companies make more money and thus can stay in business in the savagely competitive steel mesh industry (The company that I know from teaching management is Han-Kook Steel, South Korea).

They should dust the min wage, throw immigration wide open. The workers would inject money into the local economy. The factories would actually stay in business instead of moving to China.

Last edited by Seeker on 07-05-2003 at 22:03

	07-05-2003 22:07									#57
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quote: Yeah...but WTF is a 'more socially humane enivornment' when it's at home?

free education and healthcare... think of the benefits to business if they didn't have to provide health insurance or be forced to pay a minimum wage

	07-05-2003 22:11									#58
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A global minimum wage would be a terrible idea. Oerdin explained why.

On the other hand, some sort of global regulations on Multinational Corporations with respect to environmental issues & worker rights/saftey would be a good thing, IMO. Part of the problem is that if the local laws are reall weak (or nonexistant), then you are again lowering the incentive for the MNCs to move in and set up shop. So I think one has to be careful to ramp up such regulations slowly, instead of trying to get 1st World style rules imposed in 3rd World countries overnight.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 22:14									#59
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I agree Arrian, that's why I'd like to create an environment in America that is conducive (sp?) for MNC's presence in the form of manufacturing jobs.

	07-05-2003 22:18									#60
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Yeah, I don't think a global minimum wage would be a good idea.

quote: some sort of global regulations on Multinational Corporations with respect to environmental issues & worker rights/saftey

This is a good idea. It is not really the lower wages that the companies benefit from, but from the lack of regulations that are adhered to (not necessarily needed or required). Companies should be required to 'work to increase the overall standard of living in the area in which they establish their production facilities'. Of course the corporations will not like this, because the need to keep those ppl poor and poverish in order to continue to get the type of worker they want... kind of reminds me of a democrat.

Anywho... Good idea Arrian. Sava, good ideas too, just a little too socialist for my republican, money grubbing stance.