07-05-2003 22:18									#61
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Also: what do you consider a worker 'right'?

I would consider:

-Severance pay.
-Sick leave.
-Maternity leave
-Safety
-Overtime (1.5)
-non-toxic environment

-Max hours per week (50)...or anything to limit workers who work such long hours that it is physically impossible for them to be working safely and healthily.

-The availability of some kind of professional assistance with regard to contracts, enforcement, negotiation, etc, be it a union, a government agency, a professional society. They should not be able to pick some kid up off the street, work him hard for a year, and then screw him 'cause he can't read or is uneducated.

	07-05-2003 22:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Oerdin, simply put, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

On the contrary my friend I do. Before you deride companies which invest in Mexico as "bandits" who don't care about their workers please understand that these people litterally had NOTHING!!!! before investers came and paid to set up a factory. Of course you're not going to see an entire society change over night. Before the factory was there they had no potable water, no sanitation, no jobs, little food, no education. Now there is a factory there and most things haven't changed except now they make more money then they did before and their standard of living has improved.

It's going to take lots and lots of little investments built up over a long period of time in order to create a society which has the infastructure you spoke about. Name calling directed at the only people who are actually doing something to improve these people's lives is not helpful nor benificial to the poor people.

	07-05-2003 22:19									#63
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I fear that future generations will look back on our times with the same disadain that we look back on countries that allowed or promoted slavery. Slavery hasn't ended. It has just moved beyond our borders so we don't have to see it everyday.

	07-05-2003 22:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker (world explodes) I don't think I've ever seen an Oerdin post where I can't find something to disagree with....this is a first... I must have not understood you.

I am an opinionated guy; that I can't deny. I do try to have a few facts support my positions though.

	07-05-2003 22:47									#65
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quote: All on the decline because corporate "Bandits" move to Mexico?

You better stop insulting MtG.

	07-05-2003 23:11									#66
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Typical american protectionism.
They claim to be in favour of free-market, and try to impose it in other countries, but when they are found to be not competitive they cry for protection and subsidies.

	07-05-2003 23:14									#67
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quote: just a little too socialist for my republican, money grubbing stance.

that's why I hate labels and stereotypes... I am not a Socialist... I just think they have some good ideas.

	07-05-2003 23:15									#68
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quote: They claim to be in favour of free-market, and try to impose it in other countries, but when they are found to be not competitive they cry for protection and subsidies.

Americans all know that nothing is "free".

Protection and subsidies? Yeah, it rather suks when your competitors are using cheaper labor that are 6 years old and working 18 hour days for 50 cents... While you may think that most corporations are only about the buck, some of them actually look out for the worker... since the get calculated in to their profit margins

	07-05-2003 23:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Typical american protectionism. They claim to be in favour of free-market, and try to impose it in other countries, but when they are found to be not competitive they cry for protection and subsidies.

America is not a dictatorship. Some of us are free trade and unfortunately others are protectionist (unfortunately usually when it benefits them personally). NAFTA is a free trade agreement. It just needs to be continually fixed so that protectionism is removed.

	07-05-2003 23:18									#70
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quote: that's why I hate labels and stereotypes... I am not a Socialist... I just think they have some good ideas.

I was refering to your ideas, but that didn't come out to clear... but, I love labels and stereotypes

	07-05-2003 23:19									#71
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Oh, and how is that related to agriculture subsidies for example?

Argentina,Canada, New Zeland, Australia, we dont employ 6 years old kids in our farms..

Anyway, I am not anti-american, the french are worse.

	07-05-2003 23:22									#72
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Mine are similar to some Socialist ideas, but are terribly opposite in others. I want to create more of a free-market for business. But my definition of business differs from some of the so called "capitalists". Personally, I don't think a child's education or the health of the people should be a business. Consumer goods are a different story. These are things people don't need. I simply want to seperate business from humanitarian sectors. And then I want to create an environment free from outside influence so it can prosper.

	07-05-2003 23:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Anyway, I am not anti-american, the french are worse.

	07-05-2003 23:23									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: All on the decline because corporate "Bandits" move to Mexico? You better stop insulting MtG.

Ay-yay-yay-yaaaay, I am dee Frito Bandito...

	07-05-2003 23:28									#75
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Sava: I could debate you on some of those views, maybe here is not the place to do that. I will say; that while your views have good intentions I am not totally convinced your ideas would work.

Plan Austral:

quote: Argentina,Canada, New Zeland, Australia, we dont employ 6 years old kids in our farms..

Thats nice, now lets name the countries that do.

Also, these countries would probably get more attention, and buisness, from the US if they did employ child labor.

quote: Anyway, I am not anti-american

That's nice.

On Ag subsidies: I have no idea. All I know is that most Ag production is now being ran by corporations. Soon, the gov. may kick all subsidies out the door, since these corporations make a lot of money and do not souly rely on one harvest, unlike old mom and pop farms.

	07-05-2003 23:31									#76
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We had a deal with Carrefour to start exporting "steak" to France, the deal was cancelled because french farmers expressed their disagreement by burning down the trucks that were carrying the steak..

	07-05-2003 23:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Oh, and how is that related to agriculture subsidies for example? Argentina,Canada, New Zeland, Australia, we dont employ 6 years old kids in our farms.. Anyway, I am not anti-american, the french are worse.

We eliminated all farm subsidies for four years when the EU told us they'd do the same if we'd just take the lead. After four years of having them INCREASE their subsidies while our farmers had no direct payments we decided to stop waiting for Europe to make good on its promises and we restored the farm subsidies.

That can hardly be seen as the actions of a rabid protectionist.

	07-05-2003 23:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The protesters who endlessly moan about the world not being a communist utopia and that direct investment hasn't instantly made every place in the world as affluent as Beverly Hills are doing more to harm the world's poor then help them.

[size=7]STRAWMAN![size]

	07-05-2003 23:34									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Oh, and how is that related to agriculture subsidies for example?

If I'm not mistaken most Americans are against farm subsidies. Unfortunately they are difficult to eliminate because of the way our political system works.

	07-05-2003 23:38									#80
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Lol, Oerdin, I always thought you were scandinavian, not american.

	07-05-2003 23:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [size=7]STRAWMAN![size]

That is no straw man my friend. It is the simple truth.

	07-05-2003 23:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Lol, Oerdin, I always thought you were scandinavian, not american.

I wouldn't mind living in Scandinavia; the taxes would suck but on the upside there'd be all those beautiful blond girls...

	07-05-2003 23:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The people that benefit from NAFTA are generally only among the top 1% of income earners. And even in that bracket, the amount that are making money are an even smaller segment of the population.

Carajo!

Mexicans in Baja California inject about 10 billion a year into the California border economy by consumer goods purchases from cars to clothes to toilet paper and household goods. There are more Home Depots per square mile down near the border than anywhere else in the US, precisely because Mexican consumers come across to spend money.

High-wage, uncompetitive manufacturing benefits those people with those jobs, and a few who indirectly benefit from their spending, at the expense of everyone else who pays for that high-wage manufacturing in the prices of the goods they buy.

	07-05-2003 23:50									#84
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MtG.

-Arrian

	07-05-2003 23:55									#85
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Michael is a meathead, but that's old news to him.

	08-05-2003 00:05									#86
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As an economist and a Mexican, I have a few things to say about NAFTA and free trade in general:

1) Free trade is not a panacea. Every theoretical evidence can be countered by an equally convincing theory that it is not. And in practical terms, there is also no evidence supporting that it works either . Theorist never take into account each country's institutional strengths and weakeness and realize that that is what measures success or failure in every model. Countries like Korea and Taiwan, contrary to popular belief, did not accieve their success but opening their economies but rather by protecting them until they were ready, one industry at the time. And they were dictatorships too which throws in the garbage can any idea that democracy is also a panacea.

2) Free trade is not free until both sides play fair. And it is not fair when both sides cut tariffs yet one side still does not eliminate the BILLIONS in farm subsidies which make agriculture trade all but fair. It is argued that subsidies make the product cheaper so we get cheaper imported goods here. True. But how about all the people from local industry who en up unemployed? Just as true and it is an ever more terrible effect. Local light industry was shattered by NAFTA, because our government did not have the balls to insist for a gradual opening of barriers and which the US insisted on.

3) NAFTA is not the EU. The EU, despite having two heavyweights, France and Germany has a plethora of mechanisms to help out the smaller countries, and especially the poorer new members. No portuguese or spaniard can deny that integration to the EU has greatly given their countries a boost to catch up with the rest of the more prosperous northern european countries. NAFTA has none of this. It is simply an attempt by the US government to open markets for its products with absolutely no concern about fostering a "catch-up". Same with ALCA or whatever it's called in english (the Free trade zone for the Americas). One giant sweatshop factory stretching from the Rio Grande to Tierra del Fuego.

Whopdy ****ing doo...

	08-05-2003 00:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Carajo! Mexicans in Baja California inject about 10 billion a year into the California border economy by consumer goods purchases from cars to clothes to toilet paper and household goods. There are more Home Depots per square mile down near the border than anywhere else in the US, precisely because Mexican consumers come across to spend money.

Agreed, but how does this help the Mexican economy? Not one bit. If anything it's increasing the gap between our two countries. Personal wealth means nothing in national aggregate values if it is spent on goods and services of another country.

	08-05-2003 00:13									#88
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ALCA is called FTAA in English and ZLEA in French

	08-05-2003 00:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Agreed, but how does this help the Mexican economy? Not one bit. If anything it's increasing the gap between our two countries. Personal wealth means nothing in national aggregate values if it is spent on goods and services of another country.

You have to look at the overall trade balance. And I think that there is an overall injection into the US wrt goods. The problem is that there is cash flow out of Mexico into the US wrt to investment.

	08-05-2003 00:28									#90
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Interesting points by Master Zen.

I think the most important one to note is the fact that many successful economies started out with protectist policies on their local industries (I seem to have hazy memories of some hefty tariffs used by the US back when we were a backwater ) and later opened up.

Makes sense to me. However, are the rich nations obligated to not retaliate if a poor nation protects its industries? So if Mexico wanted to really get into steel production, and set up high steel tariffs, should the US return the favor or do nothing (yeah, right, the steel industry here would go beserk)?

I'm actually asking, btw. What do you all think about that issue? On the one hand, it is in our long-term interests to see the 3rd world become more prosperous, but in the short-term, protectionism for their local industries would hurt us. Further, if no retaliatory protectionism is used, will those 3rd world nations not come to expect preferential trade deals (think of it in terms of a government entitlement. People get PISSED if the government is giving them something, and then it stops. Doesn't matter if it was "fair" for them to get it in the first place)?

Complex issue.

-Arrian