07-05-2003 13:16									#1
	For real: 3-way chat with RP and Vox - Wednesday 8:30 EST Full PM-box? Change here!

Chat will be held in DALnet, in the following channel:

#ScarySpider story

(story is the password)


I probably won't get back from work until like 9 pm EST, they know this. Confirmed attendees are Togas and BigFree from RP and Betahound from Vox.

Anyone from GoW is welcome especially since I won't be able to make it until about 30 min. after the chat starts (maybe I will, but its not guaranteed)


Also, I finally got an answer by mav_son and Darekill about a chat with ND sometime later on, will post further details later.

	07-05-2003 16:12									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think that's noon for me....I will be at work and cannot attend

See if you can get beta to send us a detailed jpg of their troop positions...or even a copy of their saved game.

If they want 3 teams v 1... the plan must be detailed, & co-ordinated.

Good Luck

	07-05-2003 18:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'll be there (same time as SPDG chat ).

	08-05-2003 05:38									#4
	Put an end to popups!

No luck in getting connected to dalnet.

	08-05-2003 05:55									#5
	Tired of ads?

I couldn't connect with a firewall. Try diabling it and then connecting

	08-05-2003 06:04									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

even with Java client, GF?

	08-05-2003 07:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I can't now, evenings are very bad for me.

	08-05-2003 08:07									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Session Start: Wed May 07 19:37:07 2003
Session Ident: #ScarySpider
[19:37] * Now talking in #ScarySpider
[19:37] (Panzer32) hey BF
[19:37] (BigFree) hey
[19:37] (BigFree) whom are you representing?
[19:37] (Panzer32) GoW
[19:38] (Panzer32) btw, its "who" in a question
[19:38] (BigFree) meeting not for another hour though
[19:38] (Panzer32) yeah
[20:33] (BigFree) BH said he may be later than 5:30 due to his favorite program being on: "Enterprise"
[20:35] (Panzer32) ah... MZ probably won't be here for another half hour
[20:35] (BigFree) cool thenlet's just wait till 6 then
[20:35] (BigFree) or 6 PST
[20:35] * MasterZen has joined #ScarySpider
[20:36] * BigFree sets mode: +oo MasterZen Panzer32
[20:36] (MasterZen) Der Zen kommt!
[20:36] (BigFree) hey
[20:36] (BigFree) BH won't likely be here till 6 PST
[20:36] (MasterZen) ok
[20:37] (BigFree) on a side not Togas lost his connection at home, it may be 9 days before he gets a connection....
[20:37] (MasterZen) damn!! that sucks big time
[20:37] (BigFree) he will only be able to post/chat from work for a while
[20:38] (BigFree) he called just now, lucky I gave him my #
[20:39] (BigFree) his GF was tring to ge them hooked with with a cable modem instead of his current DSL, but she cancelled servervice before the cable modem could be brought in and installed
[20:39] (BigFree) he's trying to get service back, but he'll wait and see what happens
[20:44] (MasterZen) being all of us internet junkies I'm surprised he didn't break up with his GF for something like that.. lol
[20:44] (BigFree) )
[20:56] * BetaHound has joined #ScarySpider
[20:57] (BetaHound) Hello!
[20:57] (Panzer32) hey Beta
[20:57] (BetaHound) new problem - West Wing is just coming on.
[20:57] (BetaHound) New episode.
[20:58] (BetaHound) hmmm...
[20:58] (BetaHound) How's things panzer?
[20:58] (BetaHound) Life in the Pete OK?
[20:59] * BigFree sets mode: +o BetaHound
[20:59] (Panzer32) yup
[20:59] (BigFree) Was Enterprise a new one?
[21:00] (MasterZen) hey!
[21:03] (BigFree) lets talk
[21:04] (Panzer32) ok
[21:05] (MasterZen) good
[21:05] (BetaHound) yup - it was new - and great. Guess who wa in it?
[21:05] (BetaHound) was
[21:05] (BigFree) no
[21:05] (MasterZen) Elizabeth Hurley naked?
[21:05] (BigFree) dont say
[21:05] (BigFree) I have to watch in 2 hours
[21:05] (BetaHound) hehe anhhh no.
[21:05] (BetaHound) Oh - c'mon - guess.
[21:06] (Panzer32) no idea; don't watch it
[21:06] (MasterZen) Georgy W. Bush?
[21:06] (BetaHound) Who are our all time favorite bad guys on Star Trek?
[21:06] (MasterZen) reprising his RL role?
[21:06] (BigFree) 7 of 9
[21:06] (MasterZen) DARTH VADER!!!
[21:06] (BigFree) lol
[21:06] (BetaHound) 7 of 9 - ahhhhhh - but close.
[21:06] (BigFree) kahn
[21:06] (BigFree) the BORD
[21:06] (MasterZen) Emperor Palpatine
[21:07] (BigFree) Borg
[21:07] (BetaHound) .....
[21:07] (BigFree) ??
[21:07] (BigFree) damg
[21:07] (BetaHound) yup
[21:07] (MasterZen) Darth Maul?
[21:07] (BigFree) wierd
[21:07] (BigFree) ok, no more hints
[21:07] (BetaHound) you find out quickly - so I haven't given anything away.
[21:07] (Panzer32) no. Jabba the hut
[21:07] (BigFree) ok, cool
[21:08] (BetaHound) Good show - and now West Wing is on - so I'll chat between segements.
[21:08] (BetaHound) MZ - panzer - we want - no we NEED Feudalism.
[21:08] (BigFree) doh
[21:08] (BetaHound) yup
[21:09] (MasterZen) - no we DEMAND Feudalism! -
[21:09] (BigFree)
[21:09] (MasterZen) how bout this...
[21:11] (Panzer32) why do you need feudalism for attacking? Or maybe the minister of info is exagering their sucess in their war?
[21:11] (MasterZen) see, In spite of our... ehem... "conflicts" with GS, honoring trade deals is necessary from a strict reputational point of view, not because of GS, we don't give a hoot about GS, but because of future trade deals with Lego which as we know may be eventually be THE tech dealer
[21:12] (MasterZen) add to this the fact that the no-trade clause expires in only 4 turns, or 3 had this last turn gone by
[21:13] (BetaHound) Ah - Lego is on our side by the way.
[21:13] (MasterZen) oh, have they committed anything?
[21:13] (BetaHound) In many respects they have provided more support than either oif you.
[21:13] (BetaHound) Yes - they have committed much.
[21:14] (MasterZen) how much?
[21:14] (BetaHound) We need feudalism for attacking because we need pikemen.
[21:14] (BetaHound) We cannot leave the mountains without them.
[21:14] (BetaHound) As we get close - the best defender we have is a 2.
[21:14] (BetaHound) This should be pretty clear.
[21:15] (BetaHound) Anybody on the plains is dead meat from WC's.
[21:15] (BigFree) I have an idea: What if GoW gives Vox Feud now and Vox claims to have researched it themselves. When the No-Trade clause ends; then GoW seels to RP giving every indication that GoW indeed held to theri end of the bargain, because why would they seel to one tem and not another?
[21:15] (BetaHound) MZ - more that GoW - trust me on this.
[21:15] (Panzer32) but how long will it take to get pikes there?
[21:15] (MasterZen) agreed, sending immortals and spears on to plains is no good
[21:16] (MasterZen) against a horde of WCs
[21:16] (BigFree) It would take 4 turns longer if we wait what ever that number is
[21:16] (BetaHound) 1 turn for us. Obviously longer for RP.
[21:16] (BetaHound) brb
[21:16] (MasterZen) so, you have a bunch of spearmen at Dissidentville waiting for an upgrade?
[21:16] (BigFree) Vox can upgrade near the front line
[21:17] (Panzer32) wasn't there something about RP pretending to research Feud and getting it from GoW)
[21:18] (BigFree) either that or Vox, it doesn't matter
[21:18] (BigFree) we can go wither way
[21:18] (MasterZen) it would seem more likely if RP got it than if Vox did
[21:18] (BetaHound) back
[21:18] (BigFree) sure, we'll claim to have sold it to Vox
[21:18] (MasterZen) what is Lego's science status? i.e. what are they reaseraching?
[21:18] (BetaHound) agreed
[21:19] (Panzer32) I think theyre going for theology?
[21:19] (BetaHound) ah - Theology I thionk.
[21:19] (BetaHound)
[21:19] (BigFree) sistine
[21:19] (BetaHound) yup
[21:19] (MasterZen) how "builder" of them
[21:19] (BetaHound)
[21:20] (BigFree)
[21:20] (Panzer32) to continue the trend;
[21:20] (BetaHound) Ok - so are we Ok with the feudalism 'deal'.
[21:21] (MasterZen) not yet
[21:22] (MasterZen) wait.. ok, assuming we do the Feud deal
[21:22] * NuclearisWinterius has joined #Scaryspider
[21:22] (NuclearisWinterius) hallo!
[21:22] (MasterZen) hallo
[21:22] * BigFree sets mode: +o NuclearisWinterius
[21:22] (MasterZen) as I was saying
[21:22] * NuclearisWinterius salutes all in the old spanish way
[21:23] (MasterZen) what and how soon could you transform Feud into a military advantage?
[21:23] (MasterZen) see, I was thinking that a pillaging war will be much more effective than a city-taking war
[21:23] (NuclearisWinterius) Well, who, RP?
[21:23] (BigFree) he's talikng to Vox
[21:23] (BetaHound) Even pillaging will require pikes.
[21:23] (BetaHound) We cannot survive for one turn on non-mountains.
[21:24] (BetaHound) We lost 6 units the last time we tried that to deflect GS interest away from your two horsemen.
[21:24] (BetaHound) Which - btw -
[21:24] (BetaHound) could have been better communicated as to plans.
[21:25] (Panzer32) 2 attack vs 2 defense... shouldn't be so bad. Except for retreating of course
[21:25] (BetaHound) You left us scramling to try and cover your derrieres
[21:25] (MasterZen) you shouldn't have done that
[21:25] (BetaHound)
[21:25] (MasterZen) we were expecting a diplomatic response first
[21:25] (MasterZen) from them
[21:25] (BetaHound) We were trying to help.
[21:26] (BetaHound) Seriously.
[21:26] (Panzer32) we didn't do that, GF did
[21:26] (MasterZen) agreed, and thanx but if it cost you 6 units it was not much help for the cause. I wouldn've rather we lost those 2 units and you still had 6 immortals with you
[21:26] (Panzer32) he's a crazy cow.
[21:26] (BigFree) LOL
[21:27] (NuclearisWinterius) Hmm, So far GS keeps biting it... makes me wonder how long will this last
[21:27] (Panzer32) biting what?
[21:28] (BetaHound) MZ - I agree. We should have stayed in the mountains. And - to be honest - it was not all your fault - we underestimated GS. We did not think they had that many chariots.
[21:29] (MasterZen) Chariots are one of the best units to hoard. Cheap but effective. I bet they've lost a bunch too but considering how many they probably have...
[21:29] (BetaHound) yes
[21:30] (BetaHound) But we still have tons of immortals - and more on the way.
[21:30] (BetaHound) The army is now up into the 40's range.
[21:30] (MasterZen) good
[21:30] (MasterZen) mother of god...
[21:30] (BetaHound) The problem is GS keeps pace with us.
[21:31] (BetaHound) That's why 2 0r 4 or 6 horsemen are great - but ...
[21:31] (MasterZen) trust me Beta, I would not have sent horsemen...
[21:31] (BetaHound) we realoy could use them in multiples of 10.
[21:31] (BetaHound) Understood MZ.
[21:31] (MasterZen) 5 pikes would work much better than 10 horsies
[21:31] (BetaHound) agreed.
[21:31] (MasterZen) and that is what I'm trying to get the team to commit
[21:32] (MasterZen) see problem is until we saw the terrain we had no idea that the coasts were so mountainious
[21:32] (BetaHound) Because you know - if we don't defeat GS now - well - it will be like the borg getting loose.
[21:32] (MasterZen) we imagined the horsies to be used for mobile pillaging
[21:32] (BetaHound) understood
[21:32] (NuclearisWinterius) Borg?
[21:32] (BetaHound) That was our original thinking too.
[21:33] (BetaHound) star terk reference NW.
[21:33] (BetaHound) trek
[21:33] (NuclearisWinterius) ah, those trekkie things...
[21:33] (NuclearisWinterius) Beta, open the door for the messenger!
[21:34] (BigFree) RP is commited, even commited to losing some Galley's if need be to take down GS
[21:34] (MasterZen) pikes will wreck them
[21:34] (MasterZen) economicall
[21:34] (MasterZen) y
[21:34] (MasterZen) and sometimes those wars are just as efective as city takers
[21:35] (BigFree) yes, so lets let Vox do that now, the sooner we start the better we will all be.
[21:35] (NuclearisWinterius) Pikemen would make Rp´s task force much more viable
[21:35] (NuclearisWinterius) IF teh sun comes over and rises from teh sea once again, that is
[21:36] (MasterZen) you should have gotten the lighthouse :P
[21:36] (BigFree) brb
[21:37] (Panzer32) maybe we can get GS to ferry them over??
[21:37] (MasterZen) hahaha
[21:37] (MasterZen) GS: please send some galleys over to transport the troops which will kick your ass
[21:37] (BetaHound)
[21:38] (MasterZen) so, then economic warfare gentlemen...
[21:38] (NuclearisWinterius) Dear GS: We want to wreck you and your team to bits, so please give us your galleys so that we can unload behind you and kill you all, with love , justino Togas and the allied coalition
[21:39] (NuclearisWinterius) ´´´We come as conquerors, not liberators!´´
[21:39] (BetaHound) yes - MZ?
[21:40] (BetaHound) As far as we know - we have everyone NOT trading with GS. The last deal was you giving them 200 for feud.
[21:40] (MasterZen) Beta: do you think it is plausible to deny them iron?
[21:40] (BetaHound) Their source is on the east coast - we can see it. On a mountain - defended by pikes.
[21:41] (MasterZen) drat
[21:41] (BetaHound) yes - drat.
[21:41] (Panzer32) hmm... maybe if we get tanks!
[21:41] (BetaHound) We were within two tiles.
[21:41] (MasterZen) unless we pillage the surroundings but I bet they've thought about that
[21:41] (BetaHound) And - if we had not ried to kill that east coast warrior - we may have gotten it earlier.
[21:41] (BetaHound) yes - agreed.
[21:42] (NuclearisWinterius) Panzer, first lesson in modern warfare, tanks can´t beat pikemen on a mountain!
[21:42] (NuclearisWinterius) Theyn use tungsteen spears and empoverished uranium armor
[21:42] (Panzer32) sorry
[21:43] (NuclearisWinterius) Sorry?
[21:43] (MasterZen) well then screw the whole blitzkrieg idea :P
[21:43] (Panzer32) I forgot the old tanks vs mountain pikeman anomaly
[21:43] (NuclearisWinterius) ah, got it
[21:43] (NuclearisWinterius) You see, france was overrun cause they disbanded all tehir pikes and instead built infantry
[21:43] (Panzer32) but Panzers would do well?
[21:44] (MasterZen) perhaps
[21:44] (NuclearisWinterius) Take a look at a panzer, do you think it can beat a full-armoured pikemen with his mind set on killing?
[21:44] (BigFree) back
[21:45] (Panzer32) yes
[21:46] (NuclearisWinterius) Panzer32, you are overesteeming those tanks, what all nations fail to realize is that all you need is a spear to impale it when it chrages at you (!)
[21:47] (MasterZen) back to busniess guys: timing
[21:47] (MasterZen) when
[21:47] (NuclearisWinterius) Well MZ, it all comes to when and if
[21:47] (MasterZen) can we start said ordeal, what will be the dilomatic procedure
[21:48] (NuclearisWinterius) When and if you will send feudalism
[21:48] (MasterZen) if=yes
[21:48] (NuclearisWinterius) When... ?
[21:49] (MasterZen) when is the unknown, to tell you the truth I want to speak to Lego and get them to agree to them saying they sold it. It would be much more believable.
[21:49] (Panzer32) you're catching on, NW J/k
[21:49] (BigFree) why can't you say RP sold it?
[21:50] (Panzer32) maybe we can get ND in on this too and make it a real 'world
[21:50] (Panzer32) affair
[21:50] (MasterZen) hmm... RP sells Feudalism... suddenly a galley load from RP drops down... that is NOT believable
[21:50] (BigFree) why not
[21:50] (MasterZen) if Lego stays on the sidelines at first though...
[21:51] (MasterZen) if we can get ND in on this that would be great
[21:51] (NuclearisWinterius) gotta go
[21:51] (BigFree) thta BS, just because you read suspecion inot it doesn't mean that htye are any more real or imgained as if they did not happen.
[21:51] (Panzer32) bye NW
[21:51] (NuclearisWinterius) hav a nice day
[21:51] (MasterZen) just so they don't get any ideas while our troops are offshore
[21:51] (MasterZen) see ya NW
[21:51] * NuclearisWinterius has quit IRC (Quit: Bye! )
[21:51] (BigFree) GS will be suspecious of anything
[21:51] (BigFree) no matter what
[21:52] (BigFree) so who cares what they think
[21:52] (MasterZen) BF never underestimate the value of a true ruse
[21:52] (BigFree) they can not prove what is believable or not
[21:53] (Panzer32) If this whole thing works, then no one will care what GS thinks. If it doesn't, well then... its a different story
[21:53] (BigFree) GoW helped GS by giving them cahs, no?
[21:53] (BigFree) *cash
[21:53] (Panzer32) of course
[21:53] (Panzer32) we are generous, aren't we
[21:53] (BigFree) then why would RP be beyond helping Vox by selling Feud to them?
[21:53] (MasterZen) and are we not getting it back
[21:54] (MasterZen) BF guess what GS is NOT doing right now...
[21:54] (BigFree) You get it back after GS used it to upgrade pikes
[21:54] (BigFree) what?
[21:54] (MasterZen) researching
[21:54] (MasterZen) wanna know why?
[21:55] (BigFree) they need cash
[21:55] (BigFree) duh
[21:55] (MasterZen) and...
[21:55] (BigFree) nothing helps them at the moment by researching
[21:55] (MasterZen) guess who offered to sell them chivalry once they got it?
[21:55] (BigFree) lol
[21:55] (BigFree) I knew that
[21:55] (MasterZen) and guess who's NOT going to give them chivalry
[21:56] (BigFree) I knew that too
[21:56] (BigFree)
[21:56] (MasterZen) so now you get the picture why we don't want to dishonor the deal?
[21:56] (BigFree) you are this is know by all!
[21:56] (MasterZen) if GS knows that we broke the deal, they'll start reaseraching

	08-05-2003 08:08									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

[21:56] (MasterZen) and they'll get chivalry eventually, and would you like them to upgrade 40 WCs to 40 Knight? I don't think so
[21:56] (BigFree) they will not "know" is my point
[21:57] (MasterZen) BF...they WILL know, it is waaay to obvious
[21:57] (BigFree) not IMO
[21:57] (MasterZen) but yes in mine
[21:57] (MasterZen) and most of my team agrees with me
[21:57] (BigFree) Tell me why it is so IMPOSSIBLE to believe that RP or VoX researched iut themselves
[21:58] (BigFree) maybe if you sold it on the same turn you got it; but not 4-6 turns later
[21:58] (MasterZen) Vox: no offense but its not easy to reasearch techs AND do a mass immortal upgrade
[21:58] (BetaHound) agred
[21:58] (MasterZen) 4-6 is still halfway
[21:58] (MasterZen) RP: by looking at your military advisor screen we can guess you've been building up a little too
[21:59] (Panzer32) I've got to be away for 20 minutes
[21:59] (BigFree) not for RP or Vox if they had ben previously reseraching it...
[21:59] (MasterZen) think LONG-TERM people...
[21:59] (MasterZen) this war will not be won by the decisions made which will affect the next 10 turns, it will be made by the next 20-30 ones
[21:59] (BigFree) we are, I'm jst thinking long term w/o GS!
[21:59] (BigFree) easy for you to say MZ
[22:00] (MasterZen) why? we're in the same situation
[22:00] (BigFree) evry turn cpounts for something
[22:00] (BigFree) no you are not
[22:00] (MasterZen) if anything it would be Vox the one most worried, and the point is we don't want them to suddenly face 40 knights
[22:00] * Panzer32 is now known as Panzer32_backin20min
[22:00] (BigFree) Vox is getting pummeled by cats each turn are you?
[22:00] (BetaHound) I agree with that.
[22:00] (MasterZen) are you BF?
[22:01] (BigFree) are you what?
[22:01] (BetaHound) But - don't you think your landing will have clued them in.
[22:01] (MasterZen) not by what they've said to us
[22:01] (MasterZen) they offered us peace the next turn
[22:01] (BigFree) whatever
[22:01] (BetaHound) really?
[22:01] (MasterZen) yep
[22:01] (BigFree) they just don't want to face both is all
[22:01] (MasterZen) exactly
[22:01] (MasterZen) they've got enough on their hands
[22:02] (BetaHound) ah - so they sucked up to you in other words.
[22:02] (BetaHound)
[22:02] (MasterZen) kinda
[22:02] (BetaHound) So - they are not researching Chivalry. A fas as we know.
[22:02] (BigFree) they have to know somethnig is still up with GoW, they are not that dumb
[22:02] (MasterZen) see, I can't quote this but..
[22:03] (MasterZen) one of the reasons they know the whole horsie landing was crazy is that we HAVEn't sold feud
[22:03] (MasterZen) they're checking on it
[22:03] (BetaHound) ah - OK.
[22:03] (MasterZen) they said something like "we belive you want good relations bla bla bla because you haven't sold Feud"
[22:03] (BetaHound) And when is the 10 turns thing up.
[22:03] (MasterZen) I think 4 turns, or 3 if this one hadn't crashed
[22:04] (BetaHound) Ok - that would still work for us - as we are cyrrently 'regrouping'.
[22:04] (MasterZen) I think It's worth the wait...
[22:04] (BetaHound) yes - given the new news - I agree.
[22:04] (MasterZen) we might even be willing to sell it 1 turn before and claim we believed the turn we got it counted as the first
[22:04] (BigFree)
[22:05] (MasterZen) just let me check first...
[22:05] (MasterZen) I'll PM you guys to tell you the official date
[22:05] (BetaHound) OK - thanks.
[22:05] (BigFree) sure
[22:05] (BetaHound) Now - to war plans.
[22:05] (MasterZen)
[22:05] (BigFree) yes!
[22:05] (MasterZen) again, I don't want to sound rude or anything, it's just that I'm seeing things 20 turns later, not now
[22:06] (MasterZen) that's the whole insistence of honoring the Feud deal
[22:06] (BetaHound) Agreed ,,, n/p... RP and ourselves have agreed on the
[22:06] (BetaHound) landing site for RP troops.
[22:06] (BetaHound) Just to the west of D'ville.
[22:06] (BetaHound) The mountain is still probably the best spot for GoW.
[22:07] (MasterZen) let me open the map
[22:07] (BetaHound) Or are you going to wait for Riders.
[22:07] (MasterZen) we want to send some Pikes
[22:07] (BetaHound) Good plan.
[22:08] (MasterZen) THEN we'll send the riders, but pikes can do a massive amount of economic damage first
[22:08] (BetaHound) There is another option here gentlemen.
[22:08] (MasterZen) say say
[22:08] (MasterZen) I would advise RP send a pike/med inf mix
[22:08] (BetaHound) It will be a few turns before everything is set to go - agreed?
[22:09] (MasterZen) I still have to check the details on how soon we can send pikes, I'm the crazy diplomat, not the war leader
[22:10] (BetaHound) No - but it is stil afew turns before both RP and Gow have troops lanede and set to go - agreed?
[22:10] (BetaHound) landed
[22:10] (MasterZen) yes
[22:10] (BigFree) agreed
[22:10] (BetaHound) Ok - both Eli and I ahve had separet chats with GS folks. One-on-one.
[22:11] (BetaHound) They believe that we are being set up in this war.
[22:11] (BetaHound) That you - the opportunists of the world ...
[22:11] (MasterZen) hehehe
[22:11] (BetaHound) are basically using us as a puppet..
[22:11] (BetaHound) to fight your war and wear them down.
[22:11] (BigFree) lol
[22:12] (BetaHound) Which - trust me - did go thru our minds.
[22:12] (MasterZen) and ours too
[22:12] (BetaHound) But - I know where we are coming from on this - and you as well.
[22:12] (MasterZen) j/k
[22:12] (BetaHound) We all know what GS can do if let loose.
[22:12] (MasterZen) yep
[22:13] (BetaHound) So - we go along with the theme -
[22:13] (BetaHound) we actually proposed that we would only make peace if they helped on Bob.
[22:13] (BetaHound) But GS does not trust us.
[22:13] (MasterZen) hmm...
[22:13] (BetaHound) Can't imagine why?
[22:13] (MasterZen) me neither
[22:14] (BetaHound) So - although some ideas have been floated - they are not buying.
[22:14] (BetaHound) But ...
[22:14] (BetaHound) I do think I can buy us some time - maybe 3-5 turns.
[22:14] (BetaHound) By talking about a new alliance - us making amaneds - aetc etc.
[22:15] (BetaHound) We have ruined our rep with them as it is - what's one more.
[22:15] (BetaHound)
[22:15] (MasterZen) hahaha
[22:16] (MasterZen) specifically who have you talked to?
[22:16] (BetaHound) I think GS will still gear up to eliminate us.
[22:16] (MasterZen) I would if I were them
[22:16] (BetaHound) I ahve talked to nye and Eli to Shiber.
[22:16] (MasterZen) ok
[22:16] (BetaHound) I would actually like it if GS attacked.
[22:16] (MasterZen) ???
[22:16] (MasterZen) Attacked bob?
[22:17] (BetaHound) No - Vox.
[22:17] (MasterZen) are you sure?? If I had 40 immortals I'd rather have them attacking, not defending
[22:17] (BetaHound) We could catch them with a counter-attack - which would be more effcetive at destroying units than what we have done.
[22:18] (MasterZen) but the problem is when do you think they would attack?
[22:18] (BetaHound) We would catch them out in the open - not in walled cities on hills loaded with pikes and pults.
[22:18] (BetaHound) Oh - 6-10 turns I figure.
[22:18] (MasterZen) If I were them, I'd attack with knights. Just look at the upgrades the could do with the WCs
[22:19] (MasterZen) ohh If I were them I would not go so early
[22:19] (BetaHound) But for that they need chiv.
[22:20] (BetaHound) And from what you have said - that may take them awhile.
[22:20] (MasterZen) exactly, but you're only making them stronger while you wait for them to attack
[22:20] (MasterZen) say 20 turns, that's 20 turns of industrious workers working and improvements being built DURING a golden age might I add...
[22:21] (BetaHound) yah - I agree.
[22:21] (BetaHound) We are set to go anytime - it is RP and Gow we are trying to time correctly.
[22:21] (MasterZen) I wish our cow were here...
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) WEATHER IS SO CHANGEABLE THAT THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING TO BE SAID ABOUT IT:
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) 1. Rounded lumps of ice that may fall during thunderstorms we call hail.
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) 2. Severe snowstorm is bizzard.
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) 3. Partly melted, wet snow is called slush.
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) 4. To prepare a car or a building for winter is to winterize.
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) 5. The chilling effect of wind in combination with low temperature is called wind chill factor.
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) just picked that up
[22:22] (BetaHound) ah - ok.
[22:22] (MasterZen) I'm not authorized to give any definitive answers on military movement
[22:22] (Panzer32_backin20min) still not back yet though
[22:22] (MasterZen) sorry
[22:22] (BetaHound) understood
[22:22] (MasterZen) I would if I could
[22:22] (BetaHound) n/p
[22:23] (BetaHound) no aoplogies needed
[22:23] (BetaHound) Ok - so I can explain the feud thing.
[22:23] (BetaHound) question?
[22:23] (BetaHound) No - its oK - it was earlier. Forget it.
[22:23] (MasterZen) yes, what question?
[22:24] (BetaHound) nada
[22:24] (BetaHound) is that how you say it?
[22:24] (MasterZen) si
[22:24] (BetaHound)
[22:24] (BetaHound) OK- so your basic plan is still to stockpile troops on Estonia.
[22:25] (MasterZen) ok
[22:25] (MasterZen) well, after the horsie business we'll have to try something different
[22:25] (MasterZen) plus, if I were them I'd build some galleys to harass us
[22:25] (BetaHound) Great - well then I am going to zip over to the SPDG and see what is happening.
[22:25] (BetaHound) yes - agreed.
[22:26] (BetaHound) We think a simultaneous push from the north is the best - GoW, RP and Vox together.
[22:26] (MasterZen) the west it seems is hardly defended
[22:27] (BetaHound) Au contraire. The two cities of Arahsi and Tempset are loaded with troops - from waht we can deduce.
[22:27] (MasterZen) unless they moved troops into monsoon...
[22:27] (MasterZen) oh, I was referring to the coast
[22:27] (MasterZen) but yes, those cities are on hils
[22:28] (BetaHound) The coast is still relatively clear - but within one moves distnace for them.
[22:28] (MasterZen) yes
[22:28] (BetaHound) OK - I should be going.
[22:28] (MasterZen) not an easy country to take...
[22:28] (BetaHound) Hate to be rude and dash
[22:28] (MasterZen) but every nut cracks
[22:28] (MasterZen) we'll make it rot
[22:28] (BigFree) lol
[22:28] (BetaHound) No - it is not - but yes - every nut does crack. I agree
[22:28] (BetaHound)
[22:29] (BetaHound) OK - I'm off to the SPDG chat.
[22:29] (BigFree) ok cya
[22:29] (BetaHound) Anything else for tonite?
[22:29] (MasterZen) nope
[22:29] (BetaHound) BF, MZ, Pnazer, - good nite my friends.
[22:29] (MasterZen) good nite Beta
[22:29] (BigFree) night
[22:30] (BetaHound) BF - enjoy Enterprise!
[22:30] (BigFree) thanks
[22:30] (BigFree)
[22:30] * BetaHound has quit IRC (Quit: )
[22:30] (MasterZen) I'll probably head over to the SPDG chat myself..
[22:30] (BigFree) not me
[22:30] (BigFree) too busy
[22:30] (BigFree) cya later
[22:30] (MasterZen) cya!
[22:32] (MasterZen) what's the channel for the SPDG again?
[22:33] (BigFree) hold on
[22:34] (BigFree) We will be using Undernet and meet in #civ3dem.
[22:34] (BigFree)
[22:45] (Panzer32_backin20min) oh, chat over... bye all
[22:46] (MasterZen) bye panzer

Last edited by Master Zen on 08-05-2003 at 08:30

	08-05-2003 08:15									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

you wanted it, you got it: chat log


- Basically, both RP and Vox began whining about getting Feudalism immediately to which I managed to make them realize that waiting for the deal to expire before we sold it to them. Basically I warned them that GS would research Chivalry if they saw this deal being dishonored and that would not be in their long-term interests. It worked and they stopped insisting.

- As for military planning, I said we should better send Pikes at they would be used for pillaging which is better than city busting especially against a civ like GS. Vox told us they were in the process of regrouping and that soon they'd have 40 Immortals.

- Beta told us that they and GS have begun "informal" meetings (i.e. 1-on-1 chats) and are trying to convince GS to ally with them for an adventure against Bob. They believe that GS will backstab them but plan on attacking them in the open once they invade. I told them they (GS)most likely wait until chivalry to do that and during the meantime it would give them tiem to build taking advantage of their GA. Idea shelved.

- Anyway, no definite timing yet on our commitment. But overall I think the idea is nice, even a few Pikes can do a lot of damage and not take away much from the RP war project. So, personally I would advise the CoW to send back those horsies on the galley, and send Pikes instead. Even just 2 would be more usefull than double the amount of horses...

EDIT: Panzer beat me to the chat post

	08-05-2003 08:29									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

yeah. Save the horsies for RP.

	08-05-2003 19:20									#12
	Put an end to popups!

1) It appears that they do not want us draining GS of 200 gold by selling them Chivalry.

2) There is no way in heck GS will ever believe Roleplay researched Feudalism as Roleplay has been pestering GS to sell it to them. I have been getting comments from Roleplay AND GS about this. Vox might be believable and Vox WOULD sell it to Roleplay for upgrading to more Immortals.

3) If you give a city to another civ that has a harbor in it, does the harbor transfer possesion or simply vanish?

	08-05-2003 21:32									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb 2) There is no way in heck GS will ever believe Roleplay researched Feudalism as Roleplay has been pestering GS to sell it to them. I have been getting comments from Roleplay AND GS about this. Vox might be believable and Vox WOULD sell it to Roleplay for upgrading to more Immortals.

I agree. I was arguing with them that Lego should be the one to make the supposed trade for two reasons

1) much more plausible than RP

2) we would have to "negotiate" with Lego the terms of this deception, this would take time, and thus delay the actual date of when we transfered the tech

anyway, in the end both of them were convinced that it is in their best interests to hold on on the Feud business.

BTW, I would really like to make amends with GS if only to make them belive we're actually going to sell Chivalry to them...

	09-05-2003 06:47									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The news of the numbers involved in the Vox-Gs conflict are very disturbing for 2 reasons.
1) Those numbers mean that we can have little effect on the war with our 4 more committed units.
2) With numbers of troops that high, they could concievable mount an invasion of Bob. Imagine if 5 galley's deposited 10 immortals on our continent. We would be hard pressed to hold out. Worse yet imagine 20 near us. If GS/Vox did cooperate, us and rp would be hard pressed to defend sucessfully.
I wonder if this whole war is simply a diversion so sucker us into an invasion elsewhere while the real threat approaches. We can not significantly affect the tide of war yet vox wants us over there. Perhaps we should just move 2 pike over there just to prevent a GS push north and that combined with our 2 horse would be enough for us to call the deal done with vox. So we now come to a moment of decision, do we commit large forces to the war with GS or do we simply fullfill our obligation and call it done. This seems to me to be the question.
Aggie

	09-05-2003 18:54									#15
	Support Apolyton

It is my opinion that we should concentrate on growing our cities while the Camps prepare for mass output of Workers to improve the city tiles.

The best strategy for the GS conflict would be to mass Horsemen in Vox land, convince GS we are not interested in getting heavily involved and have Vox loan us a city with a harbor for two turns.

Turn 1> move in all our Horsemen and mass upgrade to Riders.

Turn 2> move out and gift the city back to Vox.

	09-05-2003 21:40									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ghengis that plan sounds very reasonable. How many do we move over there. Right now we are commited(so i understood) to 4 more units. Do we expand that number to more say 10. 10 Riders could be a formidable force and could then be moved for the RP war. Also with 3 defense there is no need for pikes.
Aggie

	09-05-2003 23:29									#17
	Tired of ads?

Believe me, pikes can do an extroardinary amount of damage by just pillaging. I say our commitmenet with Vox be in the form of 4 pikes and keep the horsies for the RP war. AFTER the RP our Riders would go to Estonia to kick some butt but I say we marshall our mounted units on bob.

	10-05-2003 00:59									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They did say (Vox) they would prefer Pikes. I have no problem with sending them 4 Pike and Hording the Riders for Roleplay.

Sounds like a fundraiser: "Riders for Roleplay."

	10-05-2003 01:21									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

BTW, I also like the settler and worker plan. I hope we can get into details soon since I am scared our industrial base is too weak to support a major war (much less 2).

	10-05-2003 19:33									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

From what I read, there is an implied threat is that if we don’t fully support Vox, they will come after us.

Beta admitted Vox have been chatting to GS.
GS are feeding them crap about us using them as our tool to hurt them both.
Beta admits to seriously considering it.

Remember, Vox has a history of erratic behaviour. They almost went to war with us over territory, and then all of a sudden, they switch and we are their allies against GS.

If they believe their war is doomed, it would not surprise me that they take up a GS offer, and turn their attentions elsewhere. ie us

GS was always dangerous, but now, they are dangerously powerful, and take over from Lego as the #1 threat.

I have to admit, I did not really want to get involved in a Vox/GS war.
Vox left it too late, and they should have gotten rid of that observer diplomatically. They gave GS 3 or more turns to get their defences up. The first thing GS should of known about a war, was a stack of immortals 1-2 tiles from their capital

But...we are committed, and I unfortunately think, we will have to fully commit to the war.
This means more than just pikes and/or horsemen.

I think GS have multiple catapults. Pikes will be bombarded to 1 health, in a couple of rounds, and then killed. They will have no means of retreat to a safe city to heal, and would be lucky to pillage 1 tile.

Horsemen don’t have the attack range.

We will probably have to commit to Riders.

My plan would be....

Tell Vox to declare peace. Get out of the war as quick as possible.
Hopefully, GS will want to spend the rest of their GA in peaceful expansion.
We ship over Horsemen
Roleplay commits as many Medieval Infantry as possible
Vox continues to manufacture Immortals
I assume Lego is funding the war, and would not commit troops
It would be nice to get ND to commit a few pikes, and 3-4 scouts for pillaging. That is not much from ND, and they can still concentrate on building up against RP.

As soon as we get Chivalry.
1. We invade a Vox city with a barracks….A legendary fake war #2 against Vox, but this time with us as the aggressor. We use this as a smokescreen.
2. Next round, we upgrade to riders.
3. Next round, GoW riders, RP medieval infantry, Vox immortals, ND Pikes & Scouts for pillaging, stream over the border.
4. An all or nothing war happens and GS is destroyed.


Now….for this to happen.

Lego is financing Vox for their immortal upgrades. Will Lego finance our Rider upgrades ? Even finance us via Vox ?

Vox will have to declare peace… and somehow convince GS, it is in their best interest not to press on with the war. Perhaps Vox can accept that GoW was their puppet master, and tell GS they will seek revenge on us ? It would give us a good reason to “attack”, and take one of their cities.

Will ND cough up some scouts & Pikes ? Can we trust them ?
ND may be pissed at us for concentrating of GS, and not focusing on our agreed war against RP. We must sell our side of the story convincingly to ND, that GS is far more dangerous than RP, They need to be dealt with first. Also, at a minimum, we are causing RP to remove their offence, and commit them to a different theatre of war. RP would be wide open to an ND attack.

We need full details of who is committing what. The timing for all this has to be perfect.
This means getting RP’s committed forces, and Vox’s military capability. A perfectly timed multi-team offensive must be planned. And I would feal far more comfortable if our team came up with this plan. We are the best at this.


I believe the alternative…of just sending 4 Pikes &/or Horsemen will not satisfy Vox. If we don’t fully align with Vox, we will end up having a very pissed off neighbour. And we don’t want this while we are at war against RP on the other side of the continent.