07-05-2003 23:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sava We need one here first.

All in good time.

	07-05-2003 23:48									#32
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The French are relevant if the UN is to get involved and have any credibility. I think there should be a consensus here on this issue, at least, after the 1441 debacle.

If we do not make a deal, and the prospects of making a deal now are remote, I think Oerdin is right that the UN must get involved so that we can legally interdict NK shipping and air traffic.

	07-05-2003 23:49									#33
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Wow... Ned I'm surprised you think the UN is still important.

	07-05-2003 23:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin It's quite ironic, the US huge need for oil gives profits to saudis that give it to terrorists that buys nuclear weapons from North Korea.

I don't find that ironic but it is certainly stupid. We totally need higher CAFE standards, and a major increase in domestic oil production.

	07-05-2003 23:53									#35
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV Who says NK has nukes?! well... they do and the US does. The US said Iraq had WMD. Oppps... looks like they dont. Never the less. That's no reason to not invade NK. might as well.

Having the possibility for Tokyo and Seoul to be nuked is, IMO, a very good reason to try to avoid the war as much as we can.

	07-05-2003 23:56									#36
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Sava, I think it is. I was really disappointed not to get the second resolution. After all, the cold war is over and all five permanent members should be cooperative on issues of international security even if China is still not democratic.

Also, I think a coalition can act lawfully only if it is enforcing international law. The SC resolutions have the force of law.

	07-05-2003 23:58									#37
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While I agree with you on the legitimacy of law issue, I feel that the US already has proved the UN is not an appropriate body to dictate international law.

	08-05-2003 00:14									#38
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Support for the Saudis not a uniquely Bush quality. Clinton never made a peep against the repressive Saudi monarchy and ignored OBL, a prominent Saudi responisble for two major terrorists incidents during his presidency.

Fact is, we need their oil. By "we" I mean any American who is a consumer of oil, works for a company that uses oil, rides in any vehicle with oil,... - pretty much all of us. You can go right ahead and point that finger right back at yourself.

	08-05-2003 00:20									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh, yes, the French want NK to sell nuclear equipent,

Well, they did sell the stuff to both Israel and Iraq.

	08-05-2003 00:23									#40
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	08-05-2003 01:31									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Well, they did sell the stuff to both Israel and Iraq.

They sell nuclear reactors, not weapons. And the NK already got those from other sources.

I still don;t think AQ would have the money: are they going to deliver a big stash of hundreads of million in cash at the NK- Chinese border and then just walk away with a NK nuke? (which will hardly be minituarized?) NOt only do I think AQ would have problems getting all the capital for one single paymeny, but would then have trouble in the method of payment, and with delivery. I am sure terrorist would love to get their hands on a ballistic missile. NK sells missiles, AQ has yet to buy one, unlikely they can. Why would things be simpler with nukes?

	08-05-2003 01:32									#42
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especially when they're not european or american, mm? too many of them thar people who speak asian, eh?

the simple fact that forecasts for immediate casualties in the wake of hostilities breaking out in korea run from anywhere from one quarter of a million to over a million is a pretty good deterrent to military action in the area--and this is with utilizing conventional weapons only.

now, as for dealing with the damned north koreans...
sanctions won't work--i have a feeling it'll make them even more desperate, which is one of the last things we need. interdicting their shipments and searching them, however, might not be such a bad idea--they'll make noise, of course, but it'll be impossible for them to really respond in any substantive manner.
exerting lots of multilateral diplomatic pressure on them though might work--if we can get china and russia on board. china already seems to show signs of being embarrassed by their nkorean "allies", and are probably starting to see them more as a liability.
russia i don't have a good read on~ they'll probably want to help, because for them, the fewer nations on their borders who have nukes, the better...

i don't see nkorea selling nukes to terrorist organizations, however. they like to deal in cold hard currency or information trading, and thus far all the people they've dealt with have been states--rogue states, but states nonetheless.
what they might do, however, is sell it to another state actor (i.e., libya or some such), knowing full well the odds might be that those nations will then pass on the technology to said terrorist groups.

	08-05-2003 01:34									#43
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Well, France sold nuclear reactors to Iraq after the soviet union had the good taste to refuse...

	08-05-2003 01:42									#44
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That's ok the Russians have had a recent change of heart and have decided they'd sell the reactors to the Iranians instead. The Iranians are another country which has all but made a press release about their nuclear weapons program.

	08-05-2003 01:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Support for the Saudis not a uniquely Bush quality. Clinton never made a peep against the repressive Saudi monarchy and ignored OBL, a prominent Saudi responisble for two major terrorists incidents during his presidency.

While thi is true, there is a difference. Under Clinton, the Saudis were being investigated, albeit slowly and quietly. Under Bush, all investigations of the Saudis were quashed.

	08-05-2003 01:50									#46
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I definitely don't understand why the Russians would sell nuclear technology to an ambitious country that close to their borders. Sure, they must have made tons of money, which are a necessity, but I am still surprised they'd do such a move.

If I was Russian, I'd sell my nuclear technology to Brazil or such a far away country.

	08-05-2003 01:51									#47
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what investigations? I thought that Saudia is a sovereign country.