07-05-2003 23:15									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A little story. So Poland gets its first taste of freedom with american extra cheap fast food restaurants opening up all over the place in a certain big city. The prices were unbelievably low. The american restaurants could afford to do so since the company to which they belong is rather big and can afford to make losses at its start up busniness in Poland and even it up more than enough from restaurants in other places.


The myriad of small polish restaurants in the area cannot possibly face such competition and they close down, one after one.

When all but a few remain, said company raises the price of its products to that of normal levels.

Result: cornerned market, both polish businesses and consumers fooked.

So yeah we would like your tax money
just an example of course.

	07-05-2003 23:16									#32
	Got spare money?

Where did I whine ?

	07-05-2003 23:17									#33
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Both the US and the EU waste about a 100 billion $/€ per year on agro subsidies. So you'll have to offer something else against the tax subsidy regime.

	07-05-2003 23:20									#34
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So you'll have to offer something else against the tax subsidy regime.

Saving 100 Billion Euros isn't enough for you?

	07-05-2003 23:21									#35
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These 100 billions don't disappear AFAIK.

	07-05-2003 23:23									#36
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Saving 104 Billion $ isn't enough for you?

	07-05-2003 23:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A little story. So Poland gets its first taste of freedom with american extra cheap fast food restaurants opening up all over the place in a certain big city. The prices were unbelievably low. The american restaurants could afford to do so since the company to which they belong is rather big and can afford to make losses at its start up busniness in Poland and even it up more than enough from restaurants in other places. The myriad of small polish restaurants in the area cannot possibly face such competition and they close down, one after one. When all but a few remain, said company raises the price of its products to that of normal levels. Result: cornerned market, both polish businesses and consumers fooked. So yeah we would like your tax money just an example of course.

I doubt it if the market is cornered. I think what happened is that some restaurants went out of business that no one really cared for. I mean cheeseburgers aren't really that great even if they are cheap.

We have had fast food here in the US for a long time. It closed down a lot of restaurants, but our economy doesn't suffer.

	07-05-2003 23:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor These 100 billions don't disappear AFAIK.

Right and wrong. For all intents and purposes they do. In the US, the amount of corporate welfare, subsidies, and pork is staggering. It is waste because it just falls into the pockets of some fat-cat. If there's anything I've learned about money, it only disappears into someone's pocket.

	07-05-2003 23:28									#39
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IIRC, there has been a new decision some time ago that gave a mximal amount of subsidies to a European farmer. It reduced the "fat-cat" effect of these, and hence they get more to the point, i.e helping those farmers who cannot compete with big-domain owners.

I assume this help will be tremendous in Poland. IIRC, 25% Poles are working on agriculture

	07-05-2003 23:29									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Right and wrong. For all intents and purposes they do. In the US, the amount of corporate welfare, subsidies, and pork is staggering. It is waste because it just falls into the pockets of some fat-cat. If there's anything I've learned about money, it only disappears into someone's pocket.

A little bit of it does, but the consumers get most of the benefit.

	07-05-2003 23:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GP If we give tax breaks to exporters, it is money going from US taxpayers into EU consumer's hands. You shouldn't mind it. (Except for thinking we are dodos to do this. But its still a wealth transfer from US to EU.)

quote: Originally posted by GP Get rid of the subsidies. Let's start with the *****ing farmers. I'm sick of hearing about how salt of the earth they are. EVerybody else is salt of the earth and doesn't need a handout check.

I detect a note of inconsistancy here...

If the former's only real effects are a transfer of wealth to EU consumers then surely there is nothing wrong with subsidising farmers, as the consumers are mainly in very poor third world countries?

	07-05-2003 23:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A little bit of it does, but the consumers get most of the benefit.

I disagree. Such subsidies perpetuate a costly-inefficient business. Instead of letting the chips fall where they may, and perhaps letting businesses fail; such subsidies are supporting an inferior system.

	07-05-2003 23:52									#43
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Sava, you are overlooking the extraeconomical uses of "inefficient" agriculture.

	07-05-2003 23:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Get the French to drop thier subsidies to thier farmers and we'll drop our tax breaks to exporters.

I am in favor of unilateral free trade. It does not hurt us to allow subsidized goods into our market.

	07-05-2003 23:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 A little story. So Poland gets its first taste of freedom with american extra cheap fast food restaurants opening up all over the place in a certain big city. The prices were unbelievably low. The american restaurants could afford to do so since the company to which they belong is rather big and can afford to make losses at its start up busniness in Poland and even it up more than enough from restaurants in other places. The myriad of small polish restaurants in the area cannot possibly face such competition and they close down, one after one. When all but a few remain, said company raises the price of its products to that of normal levels. Result: cornerned market, both polish businesses and consumers fooked. So yeah we would like your tax money just an example of course.

A restaurant is one of the easiest businesses to start up. In the US, they are constantly starting up and closing. I hope you show more economic shrewdness in your reports.

	07-05-2003 23:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by el freako I detect a note of inconsistancy here... If the former's only real effects are a transfer of wealth to EU consumers then surely there is nothing wrong with subsidising farmers, as the consumers are mainly in very poor third world countries?

Are you brain dead, stats-freak? The positions are totally consistent. Might want to read what they were replies to as well.

Receiving subsidized goods is good. Sending them out is bad. Capiche?

	08-05-2003 00:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I disagree. Such subsidies perpetuate a costly-inefficient business. Instead of letting the chips fall where they may, and perhaps letting businesses fail; such subsidies are supporting an inferior system.

Not necessarily, but in some cases yes. The chips don't always fall eficiently as they may. Still, even if the subsidies create inefficiencies, its the overall economy that suffers. But if you look at who benefits, its those who buy the subsidized goods, and to a lesser extent the producers and workers in the industry.

	08-05-2003 00:12									#48
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What are all you Billy Badasses going to do, sic Hueij on us?

	08-05-2003 00:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand What are all you Billy Badasses going to do, sic Hueij on us?

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKE !
Erm, did you mean, what commercial retorsion we'd do ?

	08-05-2003 00:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GP I agree. Get rid of the subsidies. Let's start with the *****ing farmers. I'm sick of hearing about how salt of the earth they are. EVerybody else is salt of the earth and doesn't need a handout check.

Same goes for the EU. Let su remove the abomination that is the CAP (Common Agricultural Policy). WTF are we all subsidizing (mostly French) farmers to be inefficient and produce too much, and then dump it on the third world. It is appauling, and we need to remove it. It costs over half the EU budget (budget being about 100 Billion Euros) just to take money from the poorest countries and give it to european farmers.

Sorry about the rant, but it really infuriates me. Why should we have it? We only do because the farmers (especially French) are particularly influential politically, and it is very hard now to get it removed (must be unanimous to change something IIRC)

	08-05-2003 00:50									#51
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GP, funny answer that. Restaurants are easy to close and open.

Pay attention military failure, the poles lost their businesses and their consumers have to pay more for crap food.

	08-05-2003 00:51									#52
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Sloww, If those ears dont terrify you nothing will.

	08-05-2003 00:56									#53
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Doesn't it look similar?

I don't mean exactly, of course.
More like a relative, than the actual Hueij.

	08-05-2003 01:00									#54
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I always thought of Lamy as a clone of Infogrames' CEO

All hail Bruno Bonnell !

	08-05-2003 01:00									#55
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Drogue:

"WTF are we all subsidizing (mostly French) farmers"

Well, tell us. What percentage of CAP spending goes to Frnce?

	08-05-2003 01:01									#56
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Re the headline thread topic, I guess I'm a little underwhelmed. Sure, $4 billion is a lot of money, but the total trade that flows between the US and Europe dwarfs $4 billion.

	08-05-2003 01:05									#57
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I know nothing about this Foreign Sales Corporation. Does it subsidize all US exports, some depending on competitive conditions abroad, or only some depending on the level of campaign contributions?

	08-05-2003 01:11									#58
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From the Guardian, which I know is not reputable for opinions, being a leftist paper, but for facts and numbers is usually correct IMHO.

quote: France is also the biggest beneficiary from CAP, receiving 9.2bn euros (£5.7bn), or 22% of total CAP

That answer your question? Maybe not most of it to France, but more than any other nation.

	08-05-2003 01:14									#59
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Since France is the most important agricultural producer in the EU, I don't have any problem with that. I have a problem with screwing the Poles for subsidies though

	08-05-2003 01:14									#60
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Are there local subsidies as well? At the national level?