08-05-2003 00:09									#1
	2003 Automobile quality report is in... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

J.D. Powers and Associates has just released their annual report on intial quality which measures the average number of manufacturing defects for each automaker. The survey covers all makes and models of cars, minivans, SUVs, and light trucks that were on sale in the US or Canada as of Jan. 1, 2003. The survey is done in the first 90 days of ownership. The figures represent the number of problems per 100 vehicles (lower numbers are better). And the winners are...

Lexus - 76
Cadillac - 103
Infiniti -110
Acura - 111
Buick - 112
Mercury - 113
Porsche - 117
BMW - 118
Toyota - 121
Jaguar - 122
Honda - 128
Volvo - 128
Chevrolet - 130
Audi - 132
Mercedes-Benz - 132
INDUSTRY AVERAGE - 133
Oldsmobile - 134
Chrysler - 136
Ford - 136
Dodge - 137
Lincoln - 139
Nissan - 139
Pontiac - 142
Hyundai - 143
Volkswagen - 143
GMC - 144
Suzuki - 144
Jeep - 146
Subaru - 146
Mazda - 148
Mitsubishi - 148
Saturn - 158
Saab - 160
Mini - 166
Kia - 168
Land Rover - 190
Hummer - 225

	08-05-2003 00:12									#2
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It appears Lexus is the run away best built car in the world while Caddy is a distant second place but still well ahead of the followers. Still it's interesting that rather puedlian cars like Buick & Mercury beat the doors off of the high end Euro cars and even prinial favorites like Toyota & Honda.

I was really surprised to see Hyundai jump so far up the list. Normally they are tied (with Kia) for being the worst built car sold in America but it appears the Koreans are learning how to bolt togeather a reliable car.

	08-05-2003 00:15									#3
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Key words: "Initial quality"

This is all about how many defects (many of them insignificant) the car has when you buy it.

I care a helluva lot more about how the car will hold up over years of use.

-Arrian

	08-05-2003 00:17									#4
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Arryan: Do they have a survey which measures how long a car lasts or how many things have broken in five years? Also wouldn't that depend on how a person cares for their car?

	08-05-2003 00:19									#5
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Hummers. Anybody who buys a hummer of any kind has too much money to waste.

	08-05-2003 00:20									#6
	Tired of ads?

Consumer Reports has rankings on reliability which I think take longevity into account. I'm not exactly sure how they collect their data.

-Arrian (careful with that "y" buddy!)

	08-05-2003 00:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Hummers. Anybody who buys a hummer of any kind has too much money to waste.

I was surprised that Hummer finished so far down the list especially since they only have one model they're selling. This is their first year of production for the H2 but still...

Arrian: Thanks for the info Bro.

	08-05-2003 00:23									#8
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That last hummer I got seemed to have no defects...

	08-05-2003 00:24									#9
	Re: 2003 Automobile quality report is in... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The figures represent the number of problems per 100 vehicles (lower numbers are better).

Are you sure you have that right... because if you do, the word quality shouldn't even be mentioned because only the best car has less than one problem per car.

	08-05-2003 00:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Japher That last hummer I got seemed to have no defects...

Only one to get it.

	08-05-2003 00:31									#11
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Ming,

I'm pretty sure he's got it right. It's just that a lot of those "defects" are so inconsequential that you or I wouldn't even notice them.

-Arrian

	08-05-2003 00:32									#12
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And what do they call problems? How bad are the Honda problems compared to Kia for example? And how can Acura be better than Honda when both cars come from the same manufacturer? Acura doesn't even exist in Japan, there is no Acura NSX, overthere it's a Honda NSX or a Honda integra. Just like Lexus for Toyota. The Lexus IS300 is called a Toyota Altezza in Japan, it's the same frikin car. How can they compare Lexus to Toyota when they talk about car problems? So the real mark for toyota would be what, 98.5?

That's weird...

	08-05-2003 00:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Only one to get it.

Oh, no you weren't.

Ming: I quoted that part right out off of the web site. The numbers are defects per 100 cars with lower numbers meaning fewer defects.

	08-05-2003 00:38									#14
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I knew Lexus rocked, I just didn't know how much.

	08-05-2003 00:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spec And what do they call problems? How bad are the Honda problems compared to Kia for example? And how can Acura be better than Honda when both cars come from the same manufacturer? Acura doesn't even exist in Japan, there is no Acura NSX, overthere it's a Honda NSX or a Honda integra. Just like Lexus for Toyota. The Lexus IS300 is called a Toyota Altezza in Japan, it's the same frikin car. How can they compare Lexus to Toyota when they talk about car problems? So the real mark for toyota would be what, 98.5? That's weird...

The go by nameplate and not corporate owner thus there are sepporate entries for both Ford and Mercury (and Honda/Acura) plus they only deal with what the car/name plate is called in the US & Canada. Remember that Often times the same manufacture has different plants pumping out different cars so you will actually get a quality difference between two different assembly points making essentially the same car.

The best example of this that I can remember was back in the early 1990s when Acura and Sterling (Rovers last ill fated attempt to reenter the US market) were selling essentially the same car with different names on the front. But the Honda was made in Japan and the Sterling was made in England so when they counted up the number of defects Acura had very few while Sterling was one of the worst on the list!

They were the same car but different people were putting them together resulting in wildly different results.

	08-05-2003 00:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Key words: "Initial quality" This is all about how many defects (many of them insignificant) the car has when you buy it. I care a helluva lot more about how the car will hold up over years of use. -Arrian

Yup, that's exactly it.

American cars have usually done very well with initial quality, it's the long-term quality that they take a steep nosedive (as evidenced by their resale values).

	08-05-2003 01:08									#17
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Yep. American cars fall apart (generally, I'm sure there are one or two decent ones out there).

Lexus does indeed rock. When I was in highschool, I had a job at a Lexus dealership and (before they realized it was a major insurance no-no) got to drive the cars some. They're great... though not THAT great, when you throw price into the mix.

-Arrian

	08-05-2003 01:08									#18
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I read an article in one of the major car magazines a few years back about this "the price falls so there for the quality must be the reason" agruement. Mostly that's just false. So why does the after market price for a late model domestic fall so much faster then for say a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan?

The anwser is volume. The big three make and sell millions upon millions of more cars in North America then the Japanese so when Joe Blow goes out to find a late model used car he has literally 3-10 times as many 1998 Ford Thauruses to choice from compared to Nissan Altimas. Supply always lowers the market price. Not that the big three haven't made things even worse for themselves by offering sweet lease deals (which means lots and lots of low milage well mantained cars will be for sale 2 years down the road) and zero percent financing. Since most buyers are fairly brand loyal guess who's cars & trucks are getting traded in to get those shiney new Chevy suburbans at 0%?

That all adds up to a lower resale price for domestic cars compared to lower volume imports.

	08-05-2003 02:09									#19
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Are all those defects of equal value?

I'd rather have a car with a couple of defects that are cosmetic, say the cupholder is broke and there is rather nasty scratching in the paintwork, than to have catastrophic brake failure.

	08-05-2003 02:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I read an article in one of the major car magazines a few years back about this "the price falls so there for the quality must be the reason" agruement. Mostly that's just false. So why does the after market price for a late model domestic fall so much faster then for say a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan? The anwser is volume. The big three make and sell millions upon millions of more cars in North America then the Japanese so when Joe Blow goes out to find a late model used car he has literally 3-10 times as many 1998 Ford Thauruses to choice from compared to Nissan Altimas. Supply always lowers the market price. Not that the big three haven't made things even worse for themselves by offering sweet lease deals (which means lots and lots of low milage well mantained cars will be for sale 2 years down the road) and zero percent financing. Since most buyers are fairly brand loyal guess who's cars & trucks are getting traded in to get those shiney new Chevy suburbans at 0%? That all adds up to a lower resale price for domestic cars compared to lower volume imports.

That makes little sense to me. It seems about as logical as saying that black cars should be more expensive than red ones simply because there are fewer of them.

	08-05-2003 02:13									#21
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Good question BC

Hummers suck. They actually have an 4sshole test. You have to be an 4sshole to buy one.

	08-05-2003 04:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch That makes little sense to me. It seems about as logical as saying that black cars should be more expensive than red ones simply because there are fewer of them.

BC: At it's core it is very simple. Greater suppy equals lower prices if all things are equal. Now add on the fact that there are lots and lots of 2 year old cars coming in off lease which have to be flogged to some one (also remember all the major rental car companies are owned by the Big 3 so they buy only big three and then sell the cars every 2 years). Lastly, realize that the big three are offering super low financing (often 0%) and thousands of dollars in cash back buyers bonuses neither of which the Japanese use quite as much and you see most people find it cheap enough to just keep trading up to a newer model every few years then to bother keeping a three year old car.

That means the market litterally gets flooded with lots and lots of high quality low milage late model cars. Thus the price falls. The Japs are selling fewer cars and they aren't selling as many on lease nor are they offering major incentives so they're cars don't end up flooding the market.

	08-05-2003 04:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin BC: At it's core it is very simple. Greater suppy equals lower prices if all things are equal.

With you.

quote: Now add on the fact that there are lots and lots of 2 year old cars coming in off lease which have to be flogged to some one

OK, that will depresses the value of all cars though. If my choice is between a cheap Ford and an expensive Toyata, all other things being equal I will choose the Ford, and so will everyone else with any sense.

quote: (also remember all the major rental car companies are owned by the Big 3 so they buy only big three and then sell the cars every 2 years).

That makes more "Big 3" cars than other types, in and of itself that means nothing. As I say above.

quote: Lastly, realize that the big three are offering super low financing (often 0%) and thousands of dollars in cash back buyers bonuses neither of which the Japanese use quite as much and you see most people find it cheap enough to just keep trading up to a newer model every few years then to bother keeping a three year old car.

OK that explains why cars would be even cheaper, but it doesn't explain why people are going to pay a few thousand more dollars on a foreign car simply because there are fewer of them. If the cars are of the same standard, why go foreign at all given the extra expense?

quote: That means the market litterally gets flooded with lots and lots of high quality low milage late model cars. Thus the price falls. The Japs are selling fewer cars and they aren't selling as many on lease nor are they offering major incentives so they're cars don't end up flooding the market.

Again I come back to my fundamental question (sorry for sounding like a broken record). If the market is flooded with cheap American cars why buy an expensive Japanese car unless it is of better quality?

	08-05-2003 04:19									#24
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Red cars should cost less.
They're the most ticketed, and most stolen color.

	08-05-2003 04:19									#25
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I'd say may people still prosieve the Japanese makes to have better quality because in the 70-early 90s they did have better quality. Preception always lags reality.

Also there are many people who want to be apart from the masses and they don't want to have the same car as their neighbor and they're willing to pay a little extra to get a less common car.

	08-05-2003 04:22									#26
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Of course we've just been talking about price and quality and we haven't even touched on some people find certain designs more attractive then others.

My main point is that the Quality of many American brands is excellent; far better then many (possibly most) European or Japanese brands.

	08-05-2003 04:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin My main point is that the Quality of many American brands is excellent; far better then many (possibly most) European or Japanese brands.

Thats a big conclusion to draw from such a limited scope and ill-explained study.

	08-05-2003 04:29									#28
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The whole point of satistical quality control is so you can draw such conclusions. You can mathmatically and empericially prove that quality is improving or getting worse as well as measure relative quality compared to various competetors.

	08-05-2003 04:41									#29
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1) It doesn't say what type the defects are. As I said above are these taken on a points system, worse defects counting as being worth more, or is catastrophic brake failure considered an equal defect as a broken cup holder?

2) The report does not look at defects that occur after 3 months. There is no study of the long term durability of their purported quality.

3) If a car has no defects it does not mean it is of higher quality, unless you restrict it to mean it is better built to spec (and thus ignore things like performance).



I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, just that the conclusion is premature given the evidence you have shown.