15-03-2001 00:34									#31
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do realize, the Defence Lines/Units are not at the border. And the Frontal Units don't simply stay put. Anyway, the problem with basing scenerio results in the game is that in the game, they take turns. In this game, everything happens at same time. While the spartans move in, they get bombarded by artillery at same time and so on, and may also get attacked in anotehr spot and so on.

I don't expect the Frontal Units to survive the war, but i don't expect them to get ran over so easily by the spartans, especially not through the Defence Lines, which is one or two squares behind the borders, behind the starting front lines, manned by Infantry with ECM, countering the mobility advantage the Spartan Rovers would have, while aslso being bombarded like crazy. I expect a stale mate along the Defence Lines, like in World War One. And will be more realistic than the game
General Braddock knows what he is doing


anyway, Spartans may do all its of simulations, showing they will win. If they think that, they screwed themselves over overconfidence does kill indeed.

-LordLMP

	15-03-2001 02:14									#32
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LordLMP, The thing in the scenario is that it simulates quiet well a sudden, fast attack. Though the peacekeepers knew they would be eventually attacked, they were overwhelmed and disorganised by the Spartan onslaught. As the elite units have extra movement and are in an open terrain, they can pretty much go through anything in top speeds, especially enemy rovers who are patrolling around. I meant with the mistake made by the peacekeepers, that they should never had placed the rovers units, intended mostly for an attack, near the border. Rather they should have been ready, behind the defensive line, as the defensive units could handle the Spartans better.

The PK frontal units werenīt ran through the defensive line, I ended the story in that they were being ran towards the lines and expecting Guardian to continue from that.So the Spartans havenīt attacked the Defensive lines, yet .

BTW, a stalemate can be avoided by attacking the weak points on the line. Remember, the defensive units are made for defence only, so if there are no attack units near, the garrisons canīt do a anything to some Spartan hanging around near or in a captured bunker next to them.
And about the the artillery bombardment, i solved the one turn problem with that the Peacekeeper artillery couldnīt bombard the Spartans desently, because the damn war-crazy rovers moved so fast Never stayed enough in one place to make any serious damage. And if they did slow down, it meant that they were fighting peacekeepers, so there would be a risk of hitting own people.

	15-03-2001 03:23									#33
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Unfortunately the turnbased style of the SMAX engine means that any battle is going to give an advantage to the attacker, while in a real combat the advantage would not be so great. Think the PK'ers would sit on there arse for a year getting battered before using there missile weapons? Think again.

Basically the battles in SMAX don't have enough "time resolution" to simulate a real battle. In reality attacks and counter attacks happen on the scale of hours, days or weeks. Not years. Factor that into consideration for the battle. What you did cyber was take a one turn(year) battle in SMAX and squash it into a one day battle. The distance which takes a year to traverse in SMAX, took your units one day?

Also I was under the impression the PK territory had quite a lot of forest, which would surely slow the spartan attackers? An Elite rover unit can cross one flat/rolling tile then gets stopped cold by a forest or rocky square. Alternately move into a forest tile then attack once. I doubt the PK would have been kind enough to build a road for the spartans to use. I assume the shockwave created by the Spartan rovers travelling at well over the speed of sound obliterated all forest in their path.

So I declare the battle simulation in SMAX a big pile of manure.

In CC there is no need to restrict ourselves to the SMAX engine, especially the parts which don't make sense from a realworld point of view. We are basing CC on the SMAX universe, not the SMAX engine. Remember that. And don't try to mix n' match. The time scales get too out of whack.

edit: whoa this thread is moving fast.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited March 14, 2001).]

	15-03-2001 17:03									#34
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How many crew members does a rover have? Seeing they are powered by a fission reactor my guess would be about 10.

1 Driver + 1 Weapon guy * 3 shifts.
3 Engineers
1 Guy with unknown purpose (prehaps commander?)

For a total of 10.

Altough it could also quite easily be double that.

	15-03-2001 18:07									#35
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Blake, It probably does take one day from the Border to the Defensive Lines. The distance betwen them is about two game tiles, and one tile is somewhere about 100x100(?) km. If the rovers travelled say 80 kmph, i think they can go to the bunkers in one day, peacekeepers ahead or not
And there are no forest in PK area, atleast LodLMP hasnīt mentioned anything.
Besides, think about it. The battlefield was just north of the biggest desert in Planet, and deep inland. Maybe the PKīs have planted some patches of forest, but not any big ones. The Spartans would have surely noticed if a forest started suddely growing in a place where they thought was no human habitation anymore.
Once again, as i said earlier, the game simulates very well a sudden, suprise attack, nevermind the time scale and turns. The PKīs just didnīt have enough time to react properly, partly because there was no reliable information what was happening and where.

About the rovers, I imagine spartan rovers having somewhere 6 crew members.

1 Driver + 1 Weapon guy * 2 shifts
1 Engineer
1 Commander, but not a must.



[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 15, 2001).]

	16-03-2001 15:45									#36
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Natan, the Peacekeepers would not consider your ideology to be evil. Their official view would be that you're free to pursue your own goals, just like anybody else. It's only when you try to force your will upon others that the Peacekeepers will have a problem with it. (However, these "others" will, of course, include your own citizens...)

If they follow you by their own free will, then there's no problem!
(-But there will be if you fail to give "others" that same leeway...)

In theory, it is quite possible that the Peacekeepers would not object to Spartan philosophy if the Spartans had all chosen to follow it by their own free will and left everyone else alone. -But that's not the way the world works. (Sad but true... )

	16-03-2001 19:45									#37
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Very well. Based on my new understanding of the situation, I am coming back to Bradock's side.
Also, wouldn't every Hive rover have nerve gas pods? And couldn't they be used against the Spartans, since they 've committed atrocities already?
[This message has been edited by Natan (edited March 16, 2001).]

	16-03-2001 20:16									#38
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Whoa! Wait a minute, on what side is the Hive now? Consider the Hives situation for a moment. Youīre either against the Sparta-University-Morgan coalition, or with it. There is no turning back if the Spartans see Hive units on the side of the peacekeepers. Do you think the Chiron Alliance is going to accept the Hive? Not a chance if you ask me especially when one of the requirements for joining the alliance is turning into democratic and the value of Green. That means your faction will be in the middle of two alliances, and that isnīt the best option. The Spartans are willing to forget all grudges, and take the Hive in the way it is, as they see your factions potential power.
Just a few political advices...

	17-03-2001 10:00									#39
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It looks like I'm in a real mess here. This is way too much. Way, way too much. So if I refuse to honor my deal with bradock, I lose a third of my southern forces? If I side with bradock, I have to do demo-green? This seems like a real mess. I think I should be siding with Sparta, but I just don't know anymore. What a mess.

	17-03-2001 01:35									#40
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Whoa there! The deal with Braddock is just tempory alliance to fight the Spartans. Commissioner Lal doesn't know about it and it is not formal, or even official. There is only a Blood Truce with the Peacekeepers since the Hive War. Anyway, its only the southern forces who don't much combat anyhow, still enough units to propely defend the southerm parts pf Hive Territory, just cannot afford to strike the Peacekeepers, especially via a chokepoint. Hive has a lot of units and a strong Industry...not as strong as the Free Drones, but strong still :P the lost units can be easily replaced in a game year or less.

to follow up in the deal with Braddock would only mean that Hive cannot join forces with the Spartans, and they would be left alone mostly, especially if they are attacking Spartans aswell. Pact with Spartans and not attack them, then they only loose General Kane and his Loyal units, which on puts a dent on their Southern Hive Forces. The only factions the Hive is bordered with is the Free Drones in the north and the Peacekeepers via the Planetneck. rest of Hive territory is surrounded by water.

Hive is not screwed. Once Kane's units attacks the Spartansk, the Spartans will start to wonder, which will slow down the Spartans/university/Morganites acceptance of Hive to their alliance, not really stop it.

I am just fixing the mess and allowing some room for creative play which Hive has to deal with

Oh and Kane's Loyal Units comprise of veterans from the Hive War and some in attacks on Free Drone's/Spartan's blockade. I would think Hive would rotate his troops so they all have combat experience


-LordLMP

-LordLMP

	17-03-2001 03:41									#41
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Okay, fine, continue the path laid out. I can always just blame Kane for everything if I have to to join the Spartans. Though I'll probably find a less powerful scapegoat. Not that the Spartans can hear me saying that.

	17-03-2001 14:09									#42
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OOC: What! Sopo is permanent? You see, I donīt have Smax, only Smac and I only know the info about Sopo given on the Firaxis site, and they donīt mention about a permanent effect or losing 2 morale every time being attacked. Damn…well its time for some Nerve gas then
And LordLMP, how can that defense line stretch solidly several thousands of kilometers? You know how much soldiers they would need to effectively defend it from everywhere?
Anyways, the Spartans are not going to run through, rather blast through . The main army with the help of the Nerve gas jets, and the combined army with the PK prisoners, glued into their front armor .After all, the defending PKīs have been trained to shoot Spartans, but how about when seeing one of their comrades and friends glued to a attacking Spartan rover?hesitation is enough for the attacking Spartans...
And who cares about atrocities.The thing is, no one can stop the Spartans doing them


[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 17, 2001).]

	17-03-2001 14:10									#43
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Double post hacked by a Spartan probe team
[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 17, 2001).]

	17-03-2001 19:35									#44
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Well, in SMAX, you loose 2 morale when being attacked by Soporific Gas, but the effected units can regain those morale thought, regaining their experience. But they must attack themselves to regain their morale/experience. Or a Monolith.

As for the Defence Lines, there is 15 ECM Gatling Squads all throughout the lines, and now spreaded with some Cult Mindworms. The Spartans would suffer damage getting through the Defence Lines, as they would be stoped once they broke through the lines, so vulnerable to be attacked while they are trying to get through. Sensors help and there is Artillery bombarding them, SAM ones at that too. and Data Acquisition is defended by three Garrisons with a Perimeter Defence, and a Commando Probe Team there.

-LordLMP

	18-03-2001 01:11									#45
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Fighting each other? hows that going to help? And how do they even have it? Doesnīt bioadaptive resonance need Progenitor Psych? And the Progenitors havenīt fallen from the sky yet
Anyway, the Spartans wonīt have problems when passed the defense line, if they ram a big enough hole You see if they carry their whole force fast enough through, the combatants on the other side wonībe a problem. Besides, it will take time for the worms to spread all the way to Data Acquisition, as they are rather slow.
About the Sensor arrays, the Spartans have either destroyed or converted the arrays on the area they conquered now so that should negate the effect of the peacekeeper arrays. And the artillery has the same problem as before, either the Spartans are as fast as hell or they are fighting PKīs, and that would mean that there is a risk of hitting their own people.
Besides, if I may take some examples from the game, although I know some of you are ready to crucify it the damn artillery isnīt worth anything, never even doing more than minimal damage, except on a heap stack of units. My plan is to brake a large enough hole into the defense line, so that the Spartan units wont have to go through as a packed group, a juicy target for the artillery. Besides, arenīt all the artillery units near UN haven city?

Okay, different subject.The two trans-jets are going to the larger island. As I understand, there is no habitation, so its basically free land, a commodity valued by the Spartans. And please, LordLMP, donīt pop out a Pirate rover unit or something like right next to the new colony, okay? i donīt think the expedition teams are there round the clock, especially in the west.BTW, the jets will avoid getting near free Drone territory or any Pirate bases. They are trying to be as stealthy as possible
Cīmon, atleast just a few nukes?


Damn, should go and get some sleep. Iīll write the Attack post on the Pk lines tomorrow...

BTW, how much battle dragoon units are there in the wastes?

	18-03-2001 04:22									#46
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About the artillery... I know there's nothing like it in SMACX, but in real life, there is a weapon called FASCAM (Field Artillery SCAttered Mines)...

This kind of stuff could be a real bummer for the Spartans if the PKs started dropping it right in front of their advancing rovers...

The thing is... I'm not so sure if the Peacekeepers would have such a weapon and/or be willing to use it. -But then again, these guys are Spartans...

Oh, and there would be maybe about one and a half artillery units on the western front by now. They would have AA (and possibly FASCAM) capability, but no gas.

[This message has been edited by Guardian (edited March 17, 2001).]

	18-03-2001 09:49									#47
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IF any of you checks my pre-war stats for the PK Continental Forces, the Defence Lines have their own Artillery Units, spreaded all along the defence lines. Three western parts, three in the central parts and three along the eastern parts of lines.

In the Game, its quite unrealitic or not very explored in many things in the Game, but this game, the 'sky is the limit' for whatever you creative minds can think up within reason. Artillery can be explored quite considerably and do remember people,. they are MISSILE artillery.

And there is such things as Cluster bombs rounds aswell. Have you two ever read any battletechs books? especially ones with the big battles which involves artillery?

the only unrealistic about artillery in the Game is Laser, Gatling Laser Artilleries and any other beam base artillery. Impact, Missile and so on more realistic.

Bunkers ain't a huge long Wall Cyber, its a series of Fortress, Bunkers. Trenches, whatever in whatever patterns. No matter what, Rovers cannot run through them, their travel time would considerably be cut short to go through them, zig zagging and so on. Spartans would have to secure them the Bunkers aswell and we Rovers would have a hard time secure a Bunkers with Infantry in them, or else they'll get harrass all the way through, against ECM Gatling Squads and SAM Artillery Units. Bunkers does also give protection from Artillery aswell and from Bombers. Sensors gives the Defenders bonuses anyhow and does give Artillery bonuses when targeting. Captured Sensors doesn't give attackers any bonuses, except maybe if your attacking with Artillery. Rovers, even the Elite Spartan ones, can still get SOME damage from artillery. Mass artillery bombarbment in any specific area would do some damage, artillery doesn't really need a specific lock on a specific Rover to work properly.

Like Blake says CC is only base on SMAC/X, we use realism, common sence and also use knowledge of real life military combat on here in the Real World aswell in CC.

I have great military knowledge and know what they can do or not. And I have great sci-fi knowsledge aswell from many books like the Battletech series for example, where a lot of warfare is described Artillery is Important in any combined arms warfare.

SPARTANS are not invincible or unbeatable.

-LordLMP

	18-03-2001 09:52									#48
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I said Expedition Teams, not Military Scouts Anyway, where do you think Antimind is hiding on Chiron?

or where would the Aliens be landing, if ever?

Don't need the aliens to be aloud to research soporific and theres enough alien artifacts on Chiron to get the tech from too you know

And there is Data Angels coming.

-LordLMP
[This message has been edited by [LordLMP] (edited March 17, 2001).]

	18-03-2001 11:59									#49
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Okay, if theyīre series of fortresses, bunkers or trenches, that would mean that the defense line would have holes somewhere, some even hundreds of kilometers wide.The thing is, if you donīt want to build a chinese wall, and have 100 gatling infantries defend it, youīll have to accept that you canīt possibly stop defend the whole area.
And once again, what if the bunkers are blown to pieces, then it shouldnīt be a problem to go through them. Believe me, even the toughest material canīt stand a missile bombardment coming from fourteen units, plus two artilleries .

About the artillery, if you guys start "inventing" or using Fascams or clusters, i shouldnīt leave my weapons R&D much behind . How about Nerve gas to counter Sopo, or something more radical like heavy corrosion artillery, burning troop armor or even whole bunkers to ashes .
OR maybe, nuke shooting artillery KABOOM!
LordLMP you should know, with your extensive knowledge about warfare, that there are already, in the real world, nuclear bomb shells for conventional artillery. Theyīre not so powerful(somewhere about 15kt) but they can be used against troops and single, smaller targets quite well. And shooting a multitude of them on some area can do quite devastating damage.

Or maybe we should just stick in the old ones, given by the game... You see, the basis of our game is coming from Smax, and that means putting your own inventions can make all of this quite more complex or even unfair.
Besides, since when have you started relying on new wartoys to beat the Spartans , they donīt have better weapons than you. Theyīre just more experienced when talking about combat and warfare altogether, thats all.Thats their good side.

Next subject.Is there problem for the Spartans to start colonising the north island?Antimind? They can be friends with it.Aliens?Let them come, weīll be catching them with a tramboline What do you mean with, the Data Angels are coming?


BTW, why the hell everybody is either shouting,kill the Spartans!or constantly reminding me theyīre not invincible or unbeatable Iīm just trying to clear up things, not bragging that the Spartans are the kings of the world

	19-03-2001 01:47									#50
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LordLMP, look at CC Summaries for more information about the Hive population in Janissary rock, not the admin. The thing with drone riots is that there can be riots in Spartan cities, but there will be also anti-rioters, people with too much patriotism or something supported by the government. Just like in Jugoslavia, or actually in every nest of political instability. The voluntary citizen units represent this, and actually they have non-lethal methods(imagine two groups of drunken English football fans, with baseball bats) but I have honestly forgotten to write about it in the Admin. Its logical for them to have non-lethal methods, as they are somewhat educated and supplied by the government. What a better police force than citizens themselves
And the probe team can have a million credits, but still wonīt even open a door for them. Things donīt work in Sparta with credits. The energy credits are valued only when there is some practical use with them, like hurrying the local industry.

	19-03-2001 04:53									#51
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Okay, I'm still waiting for a map of hive territory. I can't really start making up my army or bases without it.

	19-03-2001 14:41									#53
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Ummm... did you say "three bunkers" as in "three map squares"??

Well, that would require a hole in the defense line that would be hundreds of kilometers wide... Sounds like a "mission damned near impossible" even for the Spartans, but ah well... I'm not gonna start another nit-picking discussion here...

I agree with LordLMP that we should use common sense, realism and imagination as well as SMAC/X-stuff in this game. However, I also agree with Cyber that there needs to be certain limitations - or else we might eventually end up spending so much time and energy making up and discussing new rules that there won't be any time left to play!

Anyway... what a mess we've got with the Hive!!!
Could get quite interesting actually. But... there was the thing about Yang deciding to side with the Spartans, then changing his mind and then not changing his mind after all... Does that mean I should consider his message to the Council as never having been received in the first place?

Oh, and just for the record... I'm not trying to make you turn around yourself again now, but nobody would have expected the Hive to go democratic/green!!! True, you couldn't have joined the Chiron Alliance, but for the time being, the Peacekeepers are willing to let most other matters rest and join forces with just about anybody who's out to kick Spartan butt! As for atrocities... It really doesn't matter who's doing what to whom and why, atrocities are still atrocities!!! So... the Peacekeepers will not condone atrocities against the Spartans. However... these are desperate times and the Peacekeeping Forces are not likely to take any action against any potential ally in this conflict... So... if somebody started gassing or nuking Spartans, the PKs would be less than pleased, and they would say so... -but for now, they wouldn't really do anything about it, except to say "please don't do that again"...

Anyway, enough of that. It could have been kind of interesting to see how the Hive/PK alliance would have worked and how long it would last. After all, the PKs do tend to be kind of naive, and so Yang just might have gotten away with a murder or two if he did a good job keeping up his outward appearances... Ah well! We have other elements in this game that can get quite interesting also! And besides, we just might still play out some of this stuff on Hive/PK relations at a later stage. We'll see...


[This message has been edited by Guardian (edited March 21, 2001).]

	19-03-2001 18:30									#54
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Blake, actually the economy isnīt paralyzed, depends what kind of police state.Democracy isnīt the only efficient form for a economy, you know

Okay, seems that you people havenīt understood what I meant(My fault )

Sparta doesnīt work with credits, but with power. The higher your are in the Spartan hierarchy, the more power you have, and with more power you can get more privileges, commodity and luxuries.Anyways, the Spartans donīt care much about luxuries and that kind. Hey, they are Spartans

If you want to rise up the hierarchy pyramid, you have to show your talents. You can show your talents by doing different kinds of tests, supervised by a multitude expert judges.
Or you you can show your talents on the field, like faring well in battles, being a good scientist etc. Plainly, by showing your talents in a certain field.
This way, nobody can for example, bribe the judges supervising the tests. What are they going to do with credits, as they know what they can get with their power status, so credits donīt help a sh*t in that.

However, every Spartan has certain rights and duties, so even the lowliest drone is given food, a place to live and a ton of other stuff needed for a healthy and productive life.
But if that drone starts getting slacky and doesnīt follow his/her duties, that means trouble for him/her eg. less privileges, "re-education" or even execution.

Anyways, the thing is that a Spartan can, if wants so, to live ones life as a simple drone, or follow the carrot and start climbing up the ladders, if he/she has enough talents for this.
The Spartan Federation gives the possibility for anyone to make ones own live better.
Also, large-scale propaganda and undirect brainwash is widely used


That should clear things enough. I suggest everybody should do a description about their factions society and how it works in the CC Summaries, so no misunderstandings would happen.

	20-03-2001 00:38									#55
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Hey Christantine... just some friendly advice about... well, realism!

I know Cyber himself didn't object, but there were a couple of things in your most recent post that struck me as kind of odd...

First of all, you said that the Spartans had not-so-cool personal weapons because of their inability to mass produce stuff... well, true enough, the Spartans have a not-so-cool industry, but weapons are their top priority. Their garrison/militia units in the not-so-important bases might still be running around with shredder pistols, but the armies being sent to the front would get the best weapons the Spartan Federation could lay hands on, and if you look at the faction profile back in SMAC, the Spartan -1 industry rating is explained with the statement that "extravagant weapons are costly"... In other words, they do have extravagant weapons! It just takes a while for them to make them and there will be other things that they might not get at all while they're busy building up their military...

Also, with all their military expertise, I doubt the Spartans would make the mistake of leaving their rovers neatly lined up in a "parking lot" in the middle of a war zone! After all, that's the most vulnerable you can possibly make them...

Just my two cents...

	20-03-2001 00:40									#56
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Peacekeeper probe team eliminates double post caused by Spartan virus...

[This message has been edited by Guardian (edited March 19, 2001).]

	20-03-2001 00:40									#57
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Peacekeeper probe team eliminates triple post!
Did the Data Angels snoop in our files too??

[This message has been edited by Guardian (edited March 19, 2001).]

	20-03-2001 02:34									#58
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Personal weapons: The Spartans are also overconfident. Why would they waste minerals on building small personal weapons if they were going to fight aganst Peacekeepers? Also think of how much time it took for them to build up such a large rover force with their limitations. I think because of their overconfidence they wouldn't make small personal weapons.

The rovers: Again overconfidence. Rememeber I said the rovers belonged to the commanders. Would the commanders be the first ones into battle? No! They would have their regulars start out the battle as they pulled out in their rovers. Plus would they expect a rover behind their own lines to do what it did? I don't think so.

	20-03-2001 03:48									#59
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I swear I had written some comments about the attack of the single locust, but seems it got lost somewhere in the way getting posted

Spartan might be overconfident, but they are not stupid. First of all, as Guardian pointed out, they arenīt going to make a parking slot of rovers, they arenīt even going to go out of the rovers!
Second, a rover isnīt going to go critical when colliding with another rover, otherwise the whole the whole battle of Falling Walls would have been a one big nukefest
Third, but not so important as even Gatling rifles couldnīt have done anything to the rover, but all Spartan soldiers are equipped with Gatling rifles.Once again, as guardian pointed out, extravagant weapons cost...

Chris, donīt get this wrong, otherwise it was a good story. I liked the Kansas and Unity pod stuff
Just put a little realism into it, and if some facts are unclear to you, just ask me.
And your doing a good job with Antimind, even the whole idea is interesting.

	20-03-2001 04:57									#60
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I think the idea of putting a nuclear reactor on anything that moves is a little nutty, especially when synthetic fossil fuels are available. Maybe we should interpert the idea ... more allegorically, when refering to land units? I mean, how can an infantry unit be fission powered? And wouldn't a nuclear car go very very fast?


edit: I still have no map!!
[This message has been edited by Natan (edited March 19, 2001).]