11-05-2003 14:48									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov IIRC, he doesn't tell them to forgive the woman, but just says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." That's neither here nor there, however.

The point here is that none of us are fit to judge another's sins because we ourselves are just as bad. Jesus though has no sin - so he could stone her without guilt, but he does not.

quote: The New Testament says a lot of things, certainly, and not all of them consistent.

It is all consistent, but reading isolated passages as you seem to be doing will give you false impressions.

quote: Since mercy rejoices over judgement, what about the mercy that is going to be shown to those non-Christians after death? Oh wait, they get cast into Hell for eternity. How merciful!

It is your choice to go to hell. I am sure you would be the first to complain if that choice were taken away from you. Imagine you are in a burning building with some friends, but you cannot see the flames - only they can. They try to persuade you to leave with them but you refuse, saying there is no danger. Is it their fault that you will burn? Should they stay and burn with you?

quote: Jesus himself practiced bigotry with the Caananite woman (if you called someone a dog because of their ethnic background, wouldn't that make you a bigot?).

You are goin to have to give be a book, chapter and verse please.

quote: He also tells his disciples to only go out and do good deeds among the Jews (Matthew 10:5), not the gentiles. Non-Jews weren't worthy of healing, cleansing etc., and this was after the Good Samaritan!

You are really grasping at straws now. So you think a charity is evil if it sends food aid to Africa but not to Asia?

	11-05-2003 16:45									#122
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Lincoln, Lincoln, Lincoln... Have you been reading too much Dempski lately?

Dempskis claims that you cannot increase information in a system by random processes are just better formulations of the exact same intellectual dishonesty we've seen in "the second law of thermodynamics contradict evolution" argument - it is only true if you consider a closed system. Which, as we all know, the earth is not.

	11-05-2003 17:13									#123
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BTW, the solution to Maxwells paradox is simple: It's impossible. It's like the old math trick where you supposedly prove that 1 = 2, but to do so you have to divide by zero.

The premise that the demon can somehow recognize one molecule from the next without using energy is fallacious: At the very least he must use one photon for each molecule in the recognition phase.

	11-05-2003 17:37									#124
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu BTW, the solution to Maxwells paradox is simple: It's impossible. It's like the old math trick where you supposedly prove that 1 = 2, but to do so you have to divide by zero. The premise that the demon can somehow recognize one molecule from the next without using energy is fallacious: At the very least he must use one photon for each molecule in the recognition phase.

What is to prevent the photon being reabsorbed?

	11-05-2003 17:59									#125
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Lincoln, Lincoln, Lincoln... Have you been reading too much Dempski lately? Dempskis claims that you cannot increase information in a system by random processes are just better formulations of the exact same intellectual dishonesty we've seen in "the second law of thermodynamics contradict evolution" argument - it is only true if you consider a closed system. Which, as we all know, the earth is not.

I don't read Dempski. I read the papers of atheists usually. There is enough disinfomation in them to keep me busy.

And I already said that I don't see how the 2nd law of thermodynamics (however it is interpreted) has any bearing whatsoever on the origin of specified, meaningful information. Anyway I don't have time now to go over it all again. There was recently a 350 post thread on the subject and all you materalists were left with only straws to grasp.

	11-05-2003 18:04									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Jesus himself practiced bigotry with the Caananite woman (if you called someone a dog because of their ethnic background, wouldn't that make you a bigot?). He also tells his disciples to only go out and do good deeds among the Jews (Matthew 10:5), not the gentiles. Non-Jews weren't worthy of healing, cleansing etc., and this was after the Good Samaritan! If Jesus himself was a bigot, and his adherents should follow his example, what else should one conclude?

DO you have a reference about the canaanite woman? The only parable I recall is one where the woman insists upon seeing Jesus, then when she finally manages to do so he praises her faithfulness as equal to anyone else's.

Matthew 12:21
"And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

Luke 2:32
"A light unto the Gentiles, and the glory of the peoples of Israel."
These two passages clearly show Christ's intent to serve non-Jews.

In the passage you quote Christ is sending his disciples out on their first missions on their own. He tells them to only go to Jewish towns, but does not tell them to shun Gentiles.
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying: Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritan go ye not."

	11-05-2003 18:20									#127
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Mt:15:22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mt:15:23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mt:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt:15:25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mt:15:26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mt:15:27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mt:15:28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

	11-05-2003 18:25									#128
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The above was a lesson about faith and humility. The religious Jews thought that they were the chosen seed of Israel and therefore entitled to a free ticket to heaven. The "dogs" knew that they were sinners deserving of nothing. Jesus saved the "dog" and rejected the self-righteous religious folks as he does today.

	12-05-2003 01:22									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln The above was a lesson about faith and humility. The religious Jews thought that they were the chosen seed of Israel and therefore entitled to a free ticket to heaven. The "dogs" knew that they were sinners deserving of nothing. Jesus saved the "dog" and rejected the self-righteous religious folks as he does today.

OK. I'll stop being self-righteous. woof.

	13-05-2003 12:29									#130
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Sorry to revive an old thread, but I've been gone for a while.

quote: What is to prevent the photon being reabsorbed?

Physics. If the photon reflects with 100% efficiency (which is also impossible, but let's ignore that for the time being), then the demon hasn't actually processed any information about the molecule, right? Only be expending energy can we get work, and we MUST perform work for the cognitive process in the demons mind.

	13-05-2003 12:40									#131
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Lincoln:

That's odd, since your views mirrors Dempskis almost to the letter... I don't know if you follow his rule of "500 amino acids is information" or not, that seems to be the only difference I can see.

What disinformation are you speaking of? We know that "information" can spring from natural processes in an open system, it is just a question of thermodynamics and time. So it seems pointless to spread disinformation, especially since if one knows his subject, it is MUCH easier to write something true than to deliberately write a coherent fallacy.


I don't know what thread you are refering to. I do remember a thread where I banged my forehead bloody against the impenetrable "I refuse to argue science because I don't understand science, but if you draw a parallell to anything I understand then I will insist that since it is a man-made example, all input is intelligent in orgin". I thought that was CyberShy, though, but I could be wrong.

	13-05-2003 13:09									#132
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I have never liked the traditional argument against Maxwell's demon. This is supposed to be a standard Newtonian system - no GR and no QM - so emission/absorbtion has nothing to do with the traditional explanation. It is merely that the demon is expending energy by firing light at the molecules so that he can 'see' them, and therefore increasing his own entropy.

However, in Newtonian systems you really should be able to scale the molecules up, or the demon down. So imagine that they were not molecules, but billiard balls. Then the energy that the demon is expending is miniscule compared to the energy of the balls, and so his increase in entropy is miniscule compared to the increase in temparature. Again there will be a violation of the 2nd Law.

But the energy to keep the two compartments apart does not scale down with the demon (ie. scales up with the molecules/balls). When the balls from the 'hot' compartment hit the gate, one needs to expend energy to keep them in. Therefore the loss of entropy in the 2 rooms is balanced by the gain in entropy of the gate - not maxwell's demon himself. The fact that the demon is also expending energy is just icing on the cake.

	13-05-2003 13:30									#133
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quote: I don't know what thread you are refering to. I do remember a thread where I banged my forehead bloody against the impenetrable "I refuse to argue science because I don't understand science, but if you draw a parallell to anything I understand then I will insist that since it is a man-made example, all input is intelligent in orgin". I thought that was CyberShy, though, but I could be wrong.

On the most recent thread on this subject, Lincoln demanded that I provide a computer simulation that was not designed by an intelligent being.

Strange that creationists/IDists generally have no problems accepting intelligently-designed simulations of other natural, unintelligent processes. How many of them refuse to watch TV weather forecasts because they were designed by intelligent beings?

	13-05-2003 13:33									#134
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Rogan, I think Maxwell in his original statement declared that there were no heat transfer between the two systems.

Imagine the other end of the spectra: the demon has the most inefficient nervous system ever, and expends the equivalent of a big mac meal every time he recognizes a molecule. The heat transfer you'd get from the "hotter" side would be insignificant compare to the energy the demon expends every time he decreases the entropy.

	13-05-2003 13:34									#135
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quote: On the most recent thread on this subject, Lincoln demanded that I provide a computer simulation that was not designed by an intelligent being.

Ooooh, I remember that. It would have been funny if it hadn't been so sad...