10-05-2003 08:34									#1
	Allied Invasion of Europe Strategy, Anzio, Normandy... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

...Callais also, with the Canadians.

Would you have done the same? How would your strategy have differed? Remember, your beloved allies, the Russians, are fighting for their very existance...

	10-05-2003 08:47									#2
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Do you know any good sites concerning these invasions? There are tons, but I was wondering if any of you guys knew gems.. I'd like to check out some of those maps and plans and then plan my own strategy .

	10-05-2003 09:52									#3
	Re: Allied Invasion of Europe Strategy, Anzio, Normandy... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Lancer ...Callais also, with the Canadians. Would you have done the same? How would your strategy have differed? Remember, your beloved allies, the Russians, are fighting for their very existance...

By the time of D-Day it was the Germans fighting for their existance on the eastern front.

	10-05-2003 09:54									#4
	Re: Re: Allied Invasion of Europe Strategy, Anzio, Normandy... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We are talking about time travel, right?

	10-05-2003 10:29									#5
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quote: ...Callais also, with the Canadians.

Actually you mean Operation Jubilee, the raid on Dieppe.

quote: Would you have done the same? How would your strategy have differed? Remember, your beloved allies, the Russians, are fighting for their very existance...

If there is hindsight, I would have told the Soviets to go sit on it and rotate, and made a separate peace with Germany, or not entered the war at all.

However, that aside, the biggest thing I would have done differently is driven across as much of Germany and Europe as possible to keep the Soviets from getting it.

	10-05-2003 10:46									#6
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I liked Mounte's plan to invade the south of france and push up. It would have avoided Hitler's Atlantic wall and could have been launched from allied controlled areas of Italy. Plus we would have gone right through viche controlled territory which would have been so so easy.

	10-05-2003 10:50									#7
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quote: I liked Mounte's plan to invade the south of france and push up. It would have avoided Hitler's Atlantic wall and could have been launched from allied controlled areas of Italy. Plus we would have gone right through viche controlled territory which would have been so so easy.

There would have also been a MUCH longer line of supply and reinforcement, much more subject to U-Boat harrassment, and there would have been a lot more distance to cover to get to Germany.

The Atlantic Wall didn't present that much of a challenge. Only on Omaha Beach did the defenses really hold the Allies up, and even then not for long.

	10-05-2003 10:55									#8
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I admite there would have been a slightly longer supply route but the Brits held Gibraltar and the Americans seized the south side of the straights and sub nets were set up across the channel. Italy was no longer safe for German U-boats and the Brits held Suez so how are the Nazis going to move naval forces into the combat area?

In the end Eisenhower thought it was safer to launch from England and not alienate the French by destroying supposedly neutral Viche France. I say **** Viche and we could have riding them hard before the Nazis sent a force to reenforce them.

	10-05-2003 10:57									#9
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Right, but the point is Africa was not nearly as good of a base as England was - 15 miles across the Channel, vs. hundreds of miles across the Med (and supplies still had to travel thousands of miles from England and the US to get there). If you think Patton's/Monty's logistical problems and competition were bad as things actually occured, imagine how it would be at this point.

Seizing Vichy France might have been nice, but I think that Operation Cobra and the Falaise Pocket were much better outcomes than anything an early Anvil could have provided.

	10-05-2003 11:05									#10
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You launch from Italy not Africa or better yet seize Corsica and launch from there.

	10-05-2003 11:17									#11
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Launch from Corsica? Again, that's not much of a base. And in terms of launching from Italy, well, we saw how well Anzio worked.

Look, in my opinion there simply weren't enough major bases in the Mediterranean from which to launch THE invasion of Europe. Sure, there was Malta, and Gibraltor, and then Egypt way on the other side, and I suppose it COULD be done, but at the same time, why not just go straight in from England? Again, the Atlantic Wall really wasn't a problem, and the eventual success of Cobra/Falaise Pocket seems to me to be greater than anything an early Anvil would accomplish.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

	10-05-2003 11:19									#12
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EZ..

Load a flottilla of about 8 trannies of dover drop them off at calaise. Have about 14 Division under one good general (Patton) and make sure 2 of the div are armored and the infantry divisions have arty attaches and its all yours. The 1.4 AI usually has an incompetant general occupying Antwerpin with some ragged troops from the east. The counterattack always fails.

	10-05-2003 11:31									#13
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I would have told that ***** Charles André Joseph Marie de Gaulle to liberate his own dam country.

	10-05-2003 11:34									#14
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In HOI De Gual kind of sucks as a great leader. France's armoured units get their ass kicked no matter what you do with them.

I'm beginning to like the Swedes; they make games where the French automatically lose.

	10-05-2003 11:39									#15
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I enjoy the soviets

Its VERY hard to make a line that holds from 1936-1941. Once I held off to 43 bye building all industry in siberia. Still had to make peace tho

	10-05-2003 11:41									#16
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Lots and lots of infantry solves the soviet's problems.

	10-05-2003 11:50									#17
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Never solves mine. They just cut through my 40 stacks of Conscripts/Tanks in each province bordering poland. Then behind it I usually have 3 distinct "Revolutionary Gaurds" army groups with about 15 armored/mech divisions commanded in each by Zhukov, Chukov, Temshenko. And on each Star city I have 10 more infantry. And then leningrad usually has alot of conscripts too.

Usually what happens is they invade in march/april 1941
Cut up and incircle the whole armies bordering. I try to Counterattack With Gaurds armored I get some success. But they just envolope the gaurds to. Usually by winter they have Moscow.

edit i guess another factor is lack of good tanks. FYI, I usually have BT-5/7 about 41, only the gaurds with the 3 good generals have them (I havent figured out the TT for T-34 yet! More annoying aspects of the game) everyone else just has like T-27 and Pre war stuff.

	10-05-2003 11:51									#18
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In retrospect, we should have taken out Japan before taking on Germany. It would have been nice for Hitler to wipe out communism before we wiped him out.

	10-05-2003 11:56									#19
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Hitler was losing quite well before we pushed him off a cliff.

Research infantry and field medicine then build stack after stack of infantry (not constripts) and fortresses if you can. Lastly, if he goes to sorround a group of forces then pull them back. Never let him cut off and destroy your forces. Make him fight them the hard way.

	10-05-2003 13:34									#20
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How about invading in '43? Screw Italy, go into Normandy or Brittany.

Grab Brittany, lightly defended. Then when they pull the forces out of Normandy to reinforce Brittany, do a second invasion in Normandy.

An invasion in '43 would give time to liberate europe before the Russians arrived. Also, German forces were much deeper in Russia in '43, taking longer to redeploy west.

---

What game are you guys talking about?

	10-05-2003 14:15									#21
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I haven't played HOI so I can only comment on the real shooting match.

Main reason for Normandy - airpower. Lots of airbases in southern england. If you have a copy of Panzer General try the Anvil invasion. The biggest problem is shifting your airpower close enough to southern France to get much from it.

Eastern Front. The Soviets relied on 500,000 trucks through the war to shift supplies to the front line. Don't forget they had to stockpile a lot of munitions before each major attack. 440,000 of those trucks came from the USA. If the Soviets had had to build those trucks themselves they would have had a lot fewer T34's and might not have been able to overcome the Germans.

	18-05-2003 18:29									#22
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What does HOI stand for?

	18-05-2003 20:21									#23
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HOI = Hearts of Iron.

	18-05-2003 20:35									#24
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For D-Day, I would have insisted the US take some of the "Funnies" (AVRE's) to Omaha. Hell, I'm sure they could have improved the design and built much better versions - but they thought it was a dumb idea and stuck with just the Duplex Drive Shermans instead. A helluva lot of GIs died because of this. Preventable and tragic.

For Anzio - not enough boats and a slow break from the beaches. It wasn't a terrible plan, but they didn't have enough logistics to push off the beaches quick enough. I suspect they couldn't have got more landing craft there - so my observation probably isn't relevant.

	18-05-2003 21:00									#25
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Anzio should have worked, but General Mark Clark intervened - told the commander not to take risks, because the Salerno landing had nearly failed, except that Anzio really needed an aggressive push from the beaches to make it effective

Mark Clark also decided to captutre Rome rather than destroy the German army, so extending the war in Italy

All plans for invasion prior to'44 suffered from lack of landing craft; the original time for the '44 invasion was a month earlier and would have had 1 less divison because of the shortage of landing craft. If the May invasion had gone ahead it would have been much tougher and might even have failed

	20-05-2003 11:38									#26
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I'd have given Market Garden the support it deserved.

	20-05-2003 15:28									#27
	Re: Allied Invasion of Europe Strategy, Anzio, Normandy... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lancer Remember, your beloved allies, the Russians, are fighting for their very existance...

I wasn't in aware that invasion of Normandy was in 1941. Oh ... you are an American. It explains everything. I bet you believe that you- Yanks saved our asses and that if not you Russians would spoke German now.

	20-05-2003 15:33									#28
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Of course some countries were helping the Germans invade Poland.

	20-05-2003 15:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd However, that aside, the biggest thing I would have done differently is driven across as much of Germany and Europe as possible to keep the Soviets from getting it.

You had opportunity for this, but for this you had to invade in 1941 and fight vs. the bulk of German forces.
But you preferred to seat across the ocean and watch how Russians and Germans weaken each other in bloody struggle. What have you done to grab entire Europe? Perhaps you defeated bulk of German forces? Perhaps you lost millions in this war? Perhaps it was your country which was completely burned by this war?
You disembarked only when it was clear that Russians will be in Paris if you wouldn't.

	20-05-2003 15:48									#30
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Of course some countries were helping the Germans invade Poland.

[Finnish defense mode on]
To return that part of Poland which Poles stole from us.
[Finnish defense mode off]