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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by bhg_paul
Have you played the game? Because from your comments, it sounds like you havent. The guy who collects the most resources and builds the most units the fastest is going to win. Just like most RTS games, the S is for speed not strategy.
I'm going to disagree with this. I'm an old-school TBS gamer with low click speeds and I manage to play RON very well thank you. You ARE correct that developing a material advantage is going to help your position. It would be a strange game indeed if that wasn't trule. It's just that you don't need to be an insane clicker to acheive a decent level of play. |
Same here, I am not to slow at playing RTS games, but I always lost to the players that were way faster then me and could wip out units faster then anyone else out there. Now I dont have to fast clicker to win and enjoy the game! Thanks Big Huge Games for finally making a real strategy game!!!!
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Ianworld
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Rust Gamer i sent you a PM about the TA mods...
I also played the demo some more. I have to say there is a lot more in it than i saw at first. I still find it to be a click fest though. There is just sooooo much to control. There are a lot of things they do to help this but i still find it a mess but its leaps and bounds ahead of SC and WarIII and quite a few steps ahead of the AoK.
I still advocate that you should try out TA... its got limitless possibilities right now. 3000 plus new units for download(good units) 15+ full fledged mods, game recorder, play back games in full 3d(with movable and rotatable camera), a gamer run matchmaking service with a metagame(fight to conquer a galaxy by winning battles), 4-6 completed races, the best unit control of any game i've played and queing system. And its in the bargain bin, i'd get it before i buy RoN.
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Bridger
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quote:
Originally posted by Ianworld
Rust Gamer i sent you a PM about the TA mods...
I also played the demo some more. I have to say there is a lot more in it than i saw at first. I still find it to be a click fest though. There is just sooooo much to control. There are a lot of things they do to help this but i still find it a mess but its leaps and bounds ahead of SC and WarIII and quite a few steps ahead of the AoK.
I still advocate that you should try out TA... its got limitless possibilities right now. 3000 plus new units for download(good units) 15+ full fledged mods, game recorder, play back games in full 3d(with movable and rotatable camera), a gamer run matchmaking service with a metagame(fight to conquer a galaxy by winning battles), 4-6 completed races, the best unit control of any game i've played and queing system. And its in the bargain bin, i'd get it before i buy RoN. |
The thing you can't try out in the demo is called "Cannon Time" Set this before the game in the retail version. When you press the "cannon time" button the entire game slows down to an uber-slow speed which will allow you to get many things done with your economy while at the same time making sure your battle doesn't go bad. Each player gets X number (set before the game) of cannon times. Not sure how long (realtime) each cannon time lasts, think it's 30 or 60 seconds though. Should help you fix that economy crisis while your in the middle of attacking the enemy.
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olaf
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quote:
I'm going to disagree with this. I'm an old-school TBS gamer with low click speeds and I manage to play RON very well thank you. You ARE correct that developing a material advantage is going to help your position. It would be a strange game indeed if that wasn't trule. It's just that you don't need to be an insane clicker to acheive a decent level of play. |
Well, decent level of play is a pretty subjective thing and I guess our definitions dont match up.
The military AI is lacking enough where I have to constantly micromanage my troops to make sure they dont do stupid things. If I am fighting on multiple fronts? Forget it, I will lose all focus and cohesion without lowering the gamespeed or pausing like crazy. And having to pause a lot in an RTS game sort of defeats the point, doesnt it?
olaf
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Bridger
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Think cannon time was first introduced in that WWII RTS/TBS game. What would happen is you had a 3d battlefield, the game was paused, you'd issue orders, then watch them playout for 15-20 seconds, then the game would pause, you'd issue new orders, then the game would play out for 15-20 seconds, then pause again. The pause was called cannon time in this game IIRC.
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Leaper
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quote:
Originally posted by olaf
...Forget it, I will lose all focus and cohesion without lowering the gamespeed or pausing like crazy. And having to pause a lot in an RTS game sort of defeats the point, doesnt it?
olaf |
Olaf : Why? Why do we HAVE to stick to the "conventional" way of playing the "RTS"? Maybe useing Cannon Time and/or slowing the game down makes for a better experience with this particular game. Would that be so bad? I don't see why. Different, maybe. But defeating the point.... who's point? What point? That RTS games can't be paused or slowed down? Why not?
Just a thought.
~ Leaper
edited for clarity.
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Bridger
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quote:
Originally posted by Action
I really don't see how there is any debate about this.
RoN is a well crafted, standard RTS with a few relatively interesting tweaks. It appears well done and I'm sure people who like RTS games will enjoy it.
But it has NOTHING in common with Civilization, it follows the standard RTS gameplay formula to the letter.
I'll admit I expected something other than a standard RTS, so I'm glad I got the demo instead of buying it. |
It certainly doesn't follow the RTS gameplay formula to the letter. It follows the RTS gameplay formula in a general sense. You build a TC which creates peons which can build defences/economic/military buildings and those buildings do their specific goals.
But there are many things in the game that devert from the "classic" formula. Infinate resourses is one. Name me another mainstream RTS "clone" that has infinate resourses?
Classic RTS formula includes forward building on your oponant as at least one of "the" best strategies in the game. This is not posible in RoN due to the borders.
The "classic" RTS formula does not stipulate you need supplies, at all, ever. No supplies in AoK, no supplies in WC3, no supplies in C&C (maybe generals? never played that one...).
The "calssic" RTS formula involves massing units of one type (the strongest) to send at your enemy. In AoK it was champions or paladins, mixed armies were not required. Same in C&C, it was the tank rush. in WC3 you get mass hunts or mass dryads or mass plus single or double other assorted casters/heros to provide support. This is NOT posible in RoN because of the ramping costs. If you build a one unit type army and the enemy builds a combo-army, given equal resourses he will have a good 40-50% more troops than you.
The "classic" RTS formula includes simply raizing the enemy buildings, all of them. There is not one SINGLE RTS game i know of that puts an emphasis on "capuring" enemy buildings/cities. (Sure AoK and C&C had their engineers/monks, but it wasn't a main objective of the game, just a posible side strategy). This is one of THE best features of RoN IMHO.
Saying that RoN is following the "classic" RTS formula to the letter (thus, making it another boring clone) is negated by the above deviations. It does generally represent other RTSes in many ways, but these little things added together make it PLAY differently, and that's what attracts me.
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Action
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R'lyeh
Dec 2000
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bridger
Saying that RoN is following the "classic" RTS formula to the letter (thus, making it another boring clone) is negated by the above deviations. It does generally represent other RTSes in many ways, but these little things added together make it PLAY differently, and that's what attracts me. |
Oh its quite possible that it plays slightly differently from other RTS games. But it plays 90% the same as any other RTS game. It plays nothing like a Turn Based Strategy game.
Kohan can claim that it plays like an TBS, but RoN sure as hell can't. So as I said, its just another RTS with a few interesting tweaks, not some special hybrid of RTS and TBS.
Last edited by Action on 18-05-2003 at 13:30
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MahoTsukai
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I've got the full game and it rocks.
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:28
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I agree with others that the game mechanics are very similar to other RTS games, and to classify this as a new genre is probably a stretch. And I also agree with all the posters pointing out all the new features of RoN that separate it from the other RTS games. But what I think distinguishes RoN the most is not the new features themselves, but the new strategies they allow.
For example, going after a territory victory with a defensive strategy is entirely possible. Build forts and towers and a large enough standing army to deal with an invasion, but focus on cities, temples, and techs which push your borders. Don't know if it will work in multiplayer, but it certainly works against the AI.
Another example is the diplomatic game. You don't have to start at war with everyone if you use this option. You can try to appease (or even becomes allies with) one neighbor while fighting another. This is very TBS-like. In Civ, there is an early trade off between rapid expansion and getting your military going. You can afford to have very little military early on because you start at peace with everyone. In the RoN diplomacy game, the same is true and thus you have the same strategic trade off decision to make.
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Alex
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Brasil
Mar 1999
time: 02:28
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I've tried the demo, and I have to say that RoN is a very polished RTS game, which really shines in some aspects when compared with other RTSs (idle villagers that look for something to do is wonderful), and have one of the most stunningly wide range of configurable options that I've ever seen... but, in the end, it is still a RTS.
If someone approaches RON with an idea that it could be Civilization in real-time, then he/she will be prone to a sore disappointment.
But what RON does it does extremely well. I like the graphics, the battles are incredibly large and exciting, borders are a nice feature, it has interesting research and economic systems, so... all in all, I'm pretty sure that most of RTS games in the future will follow RON's recipe to some extent, and we could say that it is a big evolution for the RTS genre. Notice I said "RTS". That's what RON is, and I can say that for the first time I'm satisfied with an RTS game. 
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Bridger
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quote:
Originally posted by Action
Oh its quite possible that it plays slightly differently from other RTS games. But it plays 90% the same as any other RTS game. It plays nothing like a Turn Based Strategy game.
Kohan can claim that it plays like an TBS, but RoN sure as hell can't. So as I said, its just another RTS with a few interesting tweaks, not some special hybrid of RTS and TBS. |
Who the hell said it plays like a TBS? If anything it "apeals" more to the TBS audience that wants to try their hand at an RTS, but it sure as hell isnt' a TBS.
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Bridger
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quote:
Originally posted by jendragon
This is not CIV IV no mistake about that ... so to compare the two is crazy... but it is likewise crazy to try to get the TBS crowd to try it you will like it .. that they are trying to do with the marketing campaign.. make no mistake about that either. |
Glad you speak for the entire TBS croud, i'm sure BHG will imediatly stop trying to market the game to them based on your suggestions.
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jendragon
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Bridger cant read as well...
I said thier marketing unmistakingly targets the TBS crowd.... I did not say if the TBS crowd would like it or not. That would be up to the individual players.... IF you would like to dispute if their marketing targets TBS players .. that would be a point for disussion.
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17-05-2003 10:04
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