30-03-2001 10:07									#1
	Dangerous territory...........>>>> Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

May I ask, what level of cheating do you allow yourself, if any at all ?

Not using the cheat menu.

ie Saving a game before a specific event.

In my current game, I'm 2nd in tech but was 15 or so behind the chinese.
So, I got a boat load of spies and a settler off to China, set up a city near a small town, and then, merrily stole tech's with my spies. Regular tactic, eh?
Before each attempted theft I saved. If the spy stole a tech and returned to my nearby city, great. If she stole and was captured, OK. But, here's the dodgy bit, if she was captured before stealing, I reloaded the game and tried again.

Have I bent the rules, or wrecked the whole game ?
I'm interested in your opinions.

------------------
Yoga Flame

	30-03-2001 10:51									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ming's line on this is a good one. You paid for the game, you want to get fun out of it. How you go about that is your business and no-one else's. OK we use the word "cheat" but we put it in inverted commas and it is not really meant pejoratively.

Also if you read the manual the designers expressly point out that you can do this and encourage players to do so.

What I think you'll find though (because it seems to happen to us all after a bit) is that a time will come when you will stop re-loading after a bad outcome. That is for two reasons. First, civ is a long game. For it to be fun it has to stay pacey. It is one of the weaknesses of the basic design that turns progressively take longer and longer. Re-loading takes bags of time and slows the game a lot.

Secondly, once you get to a certain level of skill it starts to spoil your enjoyment of what you achieve if you have re-loaded bad outcomes.

This all runs side by side with another phenomenon. Early on, virtually everyone stops playing if they get badly behind. It is seductive to start a new game free of the drag of remembering all those set-backs and with hope of an easy victory renewed. Thing about this one is it slows down your development because you don't get the chance to face new challenges.

Similarly with only accepting good starts.

I remember with pleasure the first time I accepted a polar location for my capital. And that was the game I learned the power of the Lighthouse (which I'd rarely built before, never mind as WoW of choice). Afterwards I played for a couple of months ONLY ever building the Lighthouse and Magellans (turns out to be a powerful strategy by the way).

So what happens in the end, is that you abandon all this. The temptation remains, though, and what I do is switch of the automatic save feature, which helps with that quite a bit. (Just exactly at this minute I might switch it back on if I can't find a way to stop forgeting when I delay going into revolt until the right year comes along. It's sooo bloody irritating).

Anyway, you'll find your own answers.

I can sort of tell from your posts that what you wouldn't do is to employ re-loads or other obvious "cheats" and then post record scores or comparative games without acknowledging the methods used. That is not so much "cheating" as deceiving the other people posting scores or comparison games. That would certainly be pretty remote from the ethos of Strategy/General and indeed, from what I have seen, of Apolyton boards generally.

Oh, and welcome by the way. Hope you have as much fun here as I do.

	30-03-2001 10:54									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You are playing SP - the only rules are your own - I wouldn't do that - I 'try' and play dead straight, but have been known to do a 'free' investigate city using a diplo on a save - not legit - I feel bad, but it's SP -- now MP or succession games or any other form of competition - this is cheating and is absolutely not permitted - IMHO of course

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	30-03-2001 00:15									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Man East Street... I guess I don't even need to post anymore, since people know what I'm going to say.

I'll just ditto what has always been said. In Single Play mode, you are playing for your own enjoyment... do whatever you enjoy.
If you want to post competitive records, that is indeed a different story

If you want to prepare for the REAL CHALLANGE of playing other players, cheating only teaches you bad habits that will come back to haunt you in MP games against smart opponents.

To truely test your skill, you will eventually find that cheating sucks.
Anybody can win if they cheat... But again, how you play is nobodies business but your own. Have fun and keep on Civin'... no matter how you play!

	30-03-2001 00:30									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i do save a lot, since my playing time is often interrupted, and this does give me the benefit of a glance at the powergraph, but i avoid the save and reload thing for huts or combat outcomes. seems to me that misses the point of hut popping and combat, which is that they are supposed to be risky. OTOH i will save and reload if i am trying something new which i dont really understand, or if i had a really interesting start position and i want to try it again with a different stategy ( what would have happened if i had gotten that particular set of starting techs, but had NOT gone to war with the Mongols in 2500 BC?) Of course every one (playing SP and not reporting a high score or whatever) can play any way they want but some ways of playing will cuase you to miss certain aspecs of the game. ( i am guilty here too - i tend to enjoy real world maps, but this tends to reduce some of the exploration aspects of the game, and certainly gives me an unfair advantage over the AI, who doesnt start out with my lifetime of knowledge of real world geography)

lord of the mark

	30-03-2001 01:23									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What you do when playing SP is really your own business. If that is what you enjoy fine . Personally I sort of consider it evening the playing field :P. The amount of "luck" the AI has in turning up goody huts and holding off barbarian hordes with a single militia man is absurd. Heck how does the AI know that my city way out in the boonies is undefended in that as soon as its built all their units are automatically moving toward the city that they cant see!

The only thing I really consider cheating is blatantly using the menu to make units/gold or get techs or taking away techs/units from the AI. Thats stuff I'd never do.

	30-03-2001 03:50									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Lord, I don't play real world maps, but I know there is the reveal map feature on the cheat menu as I've used it a couple of times when giving up or winning to see what else was going on. Can you not, right at the start, give all the other civs a full world map to compensate them for your education? Would they take advantage of your generosity?

	30-03-2001 15:47									#8
	Support Apolyton

I always try to resist the temptation to cheat. I find the game more fun when the outcome of random events remain uncertain. But, as everybody else has said, just do whatever gives you the most enjoyment out of the game.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 03-29-2001 12:51 PM This all runs side by side with another phenomenon. Early on, virtually everyone stops playing if they get badly behind.

	30-03-2001 16:18									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cheating : Yes, I have some time "cheating" by using "Save Game" just before certain action. Because in Civ II is not rare to see a tank unit destroy by a musketer... So absurde...
When I think it's logical that I win an action, and I know that in game I could lose, I save the game. And restart the game if I lose.

Because IA tend to have more luck when difficulty increase (she's isnt more smart).

I've "cheat" again, with the cheat menu, to help IA few time...

I used some trick too some time, like using a spy to allow military unit to move throught square controlled by foreign units. But rarely.

I like to play logicaly.

Zobo