18-05-2003 17:30									#391
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Lonewolf :
The title is misleading (Johncleod specializes in misleading titles ), but the thread is about the stupidity of these Americans who happen to be uber-patriotic.

	18-05-2003 21:30									#392
	We don't live in Utopia, but the US is the next best thing Full PM-box? Change here!

Quick questions for a newbie -

1. Whats a DL?

2. Why is that bad thing?

3. Why was the ToughUSAguy banned?

Yes, I understand the guy was a moron, but still don't you have to admit that he made some valid points....

Have we done some bad things as some have pointed out? Of course, don't know which great nation hasn't.....

That being said I don't feel that supporting a dictator fighting against something as horrible as Communism ought to be condemned for it.

I truly sympathesize with some of the victims of US foreign policy, but we were in a Cold War and when you fight something as evil as Communist barbarity ...there will be some victims in the middle of it all.

Am I upset that the world that we live in isn't perfect and that sometimes it is necessary to support evil people that do nasty things? Yes I am.

Am I going to apologize for what I believe was truly good-intentioned US foreign policy decisions that worked for freedom in Chile and other parts of the world to stop Communist aggression?

No. On that point, no i will not.

	18-05-2003 21:35									#393
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1. You.
2. against the forum rules.
3. He was a DL.

	18-05-2003 21:35									#394
	Re: We don't live in Utopia, but the US is the next best thing Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious Quick questions for a newbie - 1. Whats a DL?

A Dual Login, a regular poster who makes up a new ID to cause TROUBLE.

quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious 2. Why is that bad thing?

If nothing else it eats up connection rate. It also VERY OFTEN starts flame wars and upsets newcomers.

quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious 3. Why was the ToughUSAguy banned? Yes, I understand the guy was a moron, but still don't you have to admit that he made some valid points....

No, he didn't make any. He was out to cause trouble, and not debate or even acknowledge he might be wrong.

quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious Have we done some bad things as some have pointed out? Of course, don't know which great nation hasn't.....

We all make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them.

quote: Originally posted by Captain Obvious That being said I don't feel that supporting a dictator fighting against something as horrible as Communism ought to be condemned for it. I truly sympathesize with some of the victims of US foreign policy, but we were in a Cold War and when you fight something as evil as Communist barbarity ...there will be some victims in the middle of it all. Am I upset that the world that we live in isn't perfect and that sometimes it is necessary to support evil people that do nasty things? Yes I am. Am I going to apologize for what I believe was truly good-intentioned US foreign policy decisions that worked for freedom in Chile and other parts of the world to stop Communist aggression? No. On that point, no i will not.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

	18-05-2003 21:57									#395
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's crap. Kissinger orchestrated the assassination of the Chief of the Army who stood in the way of the coup. He's being sued because of it.

Che, out of respect for you, can you give me any confirmation of this statement other than the lawsuit itself? For example has Kissinger admitted to this? Further, was the purpose for the assassination of the Chief of the Army to promote a coup?

	18-05-2003 22:16									#396
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Ned, for once why don't YOU post some confirmation of YOUR point of view. So far the written evidence has been rather one sided

	18-05-2003 22:26									#397
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod For reading about a point of view?

John C. MacLeod, the problem I have with your seeking a "list" of American "bad" actions is that the answer to this question depends upon your politics. Every action that United States ever takes, either domestically or internationally, is hotly debated in United States between the parties. To the party that loses the debate, the particular action, of course, is bad.

If one consults the Democratic Party for example, a list of bad actions would comprise a list of the actions of the Republican Party. If one consults the Republican Party, the list of America bad actions would be a list of the actions of Democrats.

If one consults the Communist Party, theirs would be a list of every American action that was hostile to a socialist party or to a socialist country.

Anybody who has an agenda that is adverse to the American action will describe that action as "bad."

I hope this helps explain why looking for a "list" of America bad actions is entirely political.

	18-05-2003 22:34									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen You see the evidence and you still disregarded it, Sr Llera put up like how many articules to back up his side, and you haven't even bothered to cite one major claim to the contrary. Ned, you are truly hopeless.... And not how I am not even bothering to argue in detail over these things anymore, it is quite useless to people so blinded by their own twisted view of reality. Face it Ned, you lose.

Master Zen, I have read the cited articles before and know what they say. They show the CIA was involved in anti-communist propaganda and financial support of the anti-communist parties. Allende worried Nixon so much that in 1970 he authorized a coup when Allende was elected. It did not happen.

By 1973, the US had abandoned the coup efforts and had returned to propaganda.

Even the passages quote by Sr. Llera say as much. There is no evidence that the US sponsor or institigated the 1973 coup. The Church committee concluded as much. The CIA investigation also came to the same conclusion.

Finally, there is no denying that president Ford cut off military aid as soon as the attrocities were confirmed. Doesn't this indicate that we did not approve of what Pinochet did?

	18-05-2003 22:43									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ned, for once why don't YOU post some confirmation of YOUR point of view. So far the written evidence has been rather one sided

I can cite the very same articles that Sr. Llera cited. If you actually read them, they do support what I say.