12-05-2003 12:34									#1
	Are the American people predominantly right wing or left? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The US just took Iraq, in some polls 70% of the people approved of the action. Mostly it was the left that opposed. On the other side, Gore won the popular vote, slim margin, but still.

So, which are we?

	12-05-2003 12:44									#2
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We're right. We have Republican majorities everywhere, and even our democrats are further right than most Euros.

	12-05-2003 13:02									#3
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Well before this Iraq situation and 9/11 I always felt people were more leftist. If they weren't leftist they had no problem electing leftists.

It is possible that after 9/11 there has been a political shift in the U.S., which I think may be true. As 9/11 has shifted my political views as well. I was a leftist before 9/11. Perhaps if we ever get another strong leftist leader I will become one again. But right now their leadership is very weak.

I also felt that after the election debacle in 2000 that we would not have a republican president for at least 12 years. I am certain I was wrong about that. In fact we may not have a democratic president for 10 years. Bush's first 8 months in office were looking pretty weak...Although his domestic policy is still fairly weak...we'll see

But it seemed obvious to me people support social programs. although perhaps the shift occurred earlier in the 90's with welfare reform. Those stories of welfare corruption in the 90's sure got my attention- and disgusted me.

	12-05-2003 13:04									#4
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JW, the euros being left of our left is one of the things I'm looking for here. If the euros think we are a bunch of right wing wackos, all of us both left and right, then what an amazing phenomina. If true, how the heck did the situation come about?

	12-05-2003 13:07									#5
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because the europeans became more leftists.

american democrats have had to shift their policies to be more moderate to get elected. But the republicans have had to do the same thing. They don't dare cut social programs in order to get re-elected. Hence why they run up a huge debt.

	12-05-2003 13:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer JW, the euros being left of our left is one of the things I'm looking for here. If the euros think we are a bunch of right wing wackos, all of us both left and right, then what an amazing phenomina. If true, how the heck did the situation come about?

World War II, in a nutshell.

1. Here in America, us middle class and above people feel we're pretty stable. We don't really believe something bad will ever make us homeless or anything. Hence we don't believe we'll need the governments help, so we don't want to give our money to the government. In Europe, people who had felt that they were "safe" suddenly got displaced from their homes by the millions when the war started.

2. World War II wreaked havoc on the great cities of Europe. Not a single bomb touched the contiguous 48 US states, which made up over 99% of the total American population during WWII. This is why Europeans are more afraid of war.

3. We have never experienced a truly awful right wing government anywhere close to home. Europe has had several. Hence they're likely to shy away from rightist views that remind them of the 20th century fascists. Meanwhile, our biggest fear for most of the past century has been evil left wing governments. We're likely to shy away from things that remind us of the evil Soviets.

	12-05-2003 13:15									#7
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Rightist, of course.

	12-05-2003 13:16									#8
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Center-right, on the US scale. Right, on the international scale.

	12-05-2003 13:18									#9
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Dissident, this is a rich country, jobs are everywhere. Handing out money here is just absurd.

I agree that 9/11 changed things. However Clinton COULD have led a war against terrorism, SHOULD have led a war against terrorism, but didn't. People don't forgive weakness in a president. Now, with Bush, we're catching and killing the terrorists that attacked us during the Clinton years. That's not lost on people. Except here at Poly where there are so many leftists, most of America is damn glad we have a president that doesn't blink. We're tired of taking it and want to dish it out now. That's why we'll see repubs in charge for a while. If Bush had wimped out like Clinton, the US would be in very sad shape right now. The most powerful powerless country in the world. BUT! The fight is on, the right is leading it, and likely will be for quite a while.

Long winded, but basicly I agree w/ you.

	12-05-2003 13:23									#10
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JW, good points. They should have been impacted by the Soviets as well. However I was there, and they really just ignored them. Totally irresponsible! The US held the line for them. I'd be embarrassed.

Btw, 2 Japanese balloon bombs landed in Oregon. We're still recovering from that.

	12-05-2003 13:26									#11
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You don't wanna mess with the balloon bomb.

	12-05-2003 13:27									#12
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Bizarre form of warfare!

	12-05-2003 13:29									#13
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I agree with your post for the most part. But it is tough to say what Clinton would have done after 9/11. Remember Bush did nothing to address the terrorist problem for the first 8 months of his presidency. And that wasn't long after the Cole bombing. But I just can't see Clinton taking part in the overthrow of the Taliban. I would expect him to have made a more diplomatic effort combined with precision strikes.

	12-05-2003 13:31									#14
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Yeah, like SK. Very diplomatic, totally useless.

	12-05-2003 13:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior World War II, in a nutshell. 1. Here in America, us middle class and above people feel we're pretty stable. We don't really believe something bad will ever make us homeless or anything. Hence we don't believe we'll need the governments help, so we don't want to give our money to the government. In Europe, people who had felt that they were "safe" suddenly got displaced from their homes by the millions when the war started. 2. World War II wreaked havoc on the great cities of Europe. Not a single bomb touched the contiguous 48 US states, which made up over 99% of the total American population during WWII. This is why Europeans are more afraid of war. 3. We have never experienced a truly awful right wing government anywhere close to home. Europe has had several. Hence they're likely to shy away from rightist views that remind them of the 20th century fascists. Meanwhile, our biggest fear for most of the past century has been evil left wing governments. We're likely to shy away from things that remind us of the evil Soviets.

Good post.

	12-05-2003 13:54									#16
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In the US we don't have "real" right wing or left wing politics. Except maybe McCarthy. Our leftists are tame, too. US (and British) conservatives are cut from a different cloth from the Continentals.

Right wing and left wing were originally designated in revolutionary France. The right-wingers were just as devoted to Robespierre, et al., as the leftists and center, but they were not in favor of lopping off the heads of those who were guilty only by association.

	12-05-2003 14:01									#17
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Straybow, that's true. People like to get worked up but we're all fairly civilized.



Balloon bomb pic:

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/e...II/LTA10G10.htm

Balloon bomb story:

http://www.bootsnall.com/cgi-bin/gt...1riverton.shtml

Japan under ATTACK from bio weapon balloons from NK! My what you find when you search...

http://www.weeklypost.com/021118/021118a.htm

	12-05-2003 14:12									#18
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BTW the words "Leftist" and "Rightist" really annoy me. Never heard them anywhere other than from US posters on the internet. I don't normally mind Americanisms too much but those words just sound stupid.

	12-05-2003 14:47									#19
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ACW was as horrific as any of the wars in Europe, with a million dead and wounded out of a population of 33 million. Kansas and Missouri suffered the kind of stuff recently seen in former Yugoslavia, with overflow into surrounding states. Economic devastation in the South. We didn't turn pacifist.

	12-05-2003 14:50									#20
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quote: BTW the words "Leftist" and "Rightist" really annoy me. Never heard them anywhere other than from US posters on the internet.

They do get thrown around a bit much, and have been so diluted with the overuse…

	12-05-2003 15:01									#21
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The estimated total casualties for Europe in WWII is about 40,000,000. 7 million in Germany (half of them civilian), another 7 million in Poland and 20 odd million in Russia. That came 20 years after the 10 million casualties of WWI.

Two huge wars and 2 generations of young men decimated in one lifetime had a huge effect.

	12-05-2003 15:02									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow ACW was as horrific as any of the wars in Europe, with a million dead and wounded out of a population of 33 million. Kansas and Missouri suffered the kind of stuff recently seen in former Yugoslavia, with overflow into surrounding states. Economic devastation in the South. We didn't turn pacifist.

1 war does not change people perceptions. It was also a different era, people did what they were told and if that meant fighting thats what happened. Vietnam caused the US to be vary wary of foerign engagements and IIRC the amount of US casulaties in that conflict were about the same as the allied casualties ont he 1st day of the Somme.

There was then another war following WW1 20 years later, this makes people a little wary of conflict.

In any event europe by any definaition is not pacifist.

	12-05-2003 15:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: BTW the words "Leftist" and "Rightist" really annoy me. Never heard them anywhere other than from US posters on the internet. They do get thrown around a bit much, and have been so diluted with the overuse…

What I don't like about them is that they seek to define a person into one of two (maybe three if you include centrist) bands. Which is a totally oversimplistic and unrealistic representation of the political spectrum. It seems to be the same with US style useage of "Liberal" and "Conservative".

In the UK it's much, much rarer to seek to use one word to define someone's beliefs. It seems very strange to a non American and I think it sometimes hampers debates. People make too many assumptions about other people based on one word. If someone describes themselves as a Liberal or whatever people leap to all kinds of conclusions about what they must believe and sometimes seem to not actually read what the indiviual themselves is saying.

	12-05-2003 15:39									#24
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Tough one.

On some issues, I'd say the US takes a relatively conservative stand, while on others, they're clearly progressive...

I gotta go with centrist overall, but it's really more like I can't tell/undecided/other/banana.

	12-05-2003 15:44									#25
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A relative conservative stance???

Looks Like I choose the most populair of the non-american options.

	12-05-2003 15:49									#26
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I think things are more complex than just stereotyping America as either "leftist" or "right-wing". It's like saying all of Europe is arrogant just cause the French (supposedly) are.

I think the political axis changes from region to region...the South would most likely be heavy right while the West Coast probably is left. Even political conceptions such as socialism differ between Europe and the US. Being a "socialist" in the US carries a negative stigma that most people wouldn't like to admit.

	12-05-2003 17:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer However Clinton COULD have led a war against terrorism, SHOULD have led a war against terrorism, but didn't.

How can you possibly have a war against terrorism?

	12-05-2003 17:50									#28
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It's nearly as ridiculous as a war against drugs.

	12-05-2003 18:06									#29
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I guess we just like to declare war on things.

Clealry, the US is "right" of Europe on most issues (all?). I think Jaguar Warrior's post goes a long way toward explaining why.

But the right/left distinction is just way too simplified. Especially when you're talking about the political opinions of hundreds of millions of people.

-Arrian

	12-05-2003 18:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I guess we just like to declare war on things.

Except countries, which you invade or attack without a declaration.