13-05-2003 03:53									#1
	Which Civs should be added after PTW? (part 2...) Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Since i can reply to civ3-civilizations, i have to reply to here. I only found this forum today... and i was hopping for something like this, and there it is and then i cant reply...but ok, no problem. Some people say that are not information about Portugal, but here it is:

History:

http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guid...portugal20.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/se...gal_history.asp
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destina...gal/history.htm
http://www.en.eun.org/eun.org2/eun/...lang=en&ov=4707

Units:

http://www.viriatus.com/catalog.asp?Escala=54&Per=Z


The Leader, D. Afonso Henriques, first King of Portugal, known
as "the conqueror", here is a biography:

http://www.vidaslusofonas.pt/afonso_henriques2.htm



Another possible leaders:

http://www.cemed.ua.pt/nonio/Trabalhos/A_monarquia_p/
http://www.cemed.ua.pt/nonio/Trabal..._p/afonsina.htm
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_hist...a/portover.html

I think Portuguese and Dutch deserve to be in Civilization, and i am patient as it seems because 10 years (since i first played civ 1) had passed and no Portuguese yet... Doesnt mean i dont love civilization, itīs my favourite game of all times

(sorry if my english is to bad)

	13-05-2003 04:19									#2
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hmmm... portuguese and you want portuguese as a civilization?

As being Norweigan, I say I want the Norweigan civilization, not this Scandinavia crap.

	13-05-2003 04:42									#3
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 hmmm... portuguese and you want portuguese as a civilization? As being Norweigan, I say I want the Norweigan civilization, not this Scandinavia crap.

Hmmm your question is a trick or something? lol

But answering it, I am Portuguese and want Potuguese in Civilization because they deserve, if not deserve i didnīt say it... You know the wonder magelleanīs expedition that is in Civ, "Fernão de magalhães" is Portuguese....

I dont know who was the most important or powerful, if was Scandinavia or Norweigan. For example, Portuguese ascendents were The Visigoths, but they lost half of Portugal to the mours/muslin. Dom afonso Henriques regained it. And the importance of Portugal came in 1500 with the discoveries of the new world with the first caravel, Portugal ruled the world for 100 years among with spain. And later English, Dutch and French.. thatīs why i think dutch and Portuguese deserve to be in the game.

	13-05-2003 05:49									#4
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To be quite fair, and not this nationalistic nonesense of people endorsing their own nations, I need to raise the point that The Polynesians, which settled much of the south pacific needs to be represented.

	13-05-2003 06:14									#5
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Well, even though I rather agree on Portugal, Netherlands and Poland, I don't think of European civilizations as a priority for now.

The Civs that I'd really like to see :

- One or two SouthEast Asian Civs. I think the Khmers and the Javanese make a good combination, since the Khmers were continental types, while the Javanese had a huge maritime prowess. Otherwise, Khmers can be replaced by Viets, since the Viets have nearly always been the major players in the Peninsula. I however prefer the Khmers because they have built the Angkor Wat wonder
Please notice that these civilizations are quite different to each other, and they have all built their own organized empires, with as much rivalry and diplomacy as what you'd expect from the usual European / ME Civ.

- One new subsaharian African Civ (Mali or Ethiopia)
I'm partial to Mali, because the biggest achievement of Ethiopia is to have an organized government for more than a millenium -something rare in precolonial Africa.
OTOH, the Mali empire was a highly commercial Civ, whose wealth rested on transsaharian trade with the Arabs, notably slave trade. It has spanned on most of the West African Savannah for more than 200 years, and could be used to represent West African empires as a whole the same way the Iroquois represent the North American natives. There were several competing empires in Western Africa for about 500 years, the Mali could represent them all.

	13-05-2003 06:16									#6
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IMO, one of the many things I liked about the CTP series was the wide choices of civilizations to play with. With today's programming technology, we shouldn't be so limited in our choice of civs in a given game (and CTP1/2 is OLD on a software standpoint).

	13-05-2003 06:25									#7
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quote: Originally posted by dexters To be quite fair, and not this nationalistic nonesense of people endorsing their own nations, I need to raise the point that The Polynesians, which settled much of the south pacific needs to be represented.

You think i am not fair? nationalistic nonesense? The proofs speak from them selfs... but one thing you be sure I endorse justice, even if is only a game...

But besides all I only posted this because i wanted to reply to the other forum....but ok....

If you say that Polynesians must be represented, no problem with that, but must have some substancial information. But as I care I would like to have them all in Civilization. And you gonna say ->"edit it", and I say -> "problems with that, because are at least one problem, for example, edited civilizations dont enter in scores...."

no hard feelings

	13-05-2003 06:53									#8
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Wittlich :
Well, what I really didn't like in CtP, actually, was the complete lack of identity of the Civs. I like the Civ3's way better, because the animated leaderheads, UUs and Ci traits make them more unique
However, I do think more Civs would be great for the next expansion

	13-05-2003 07:01									#9
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"I dont know who was the most important or powerful, if was Scandinavia or Norweigan."

Norway is part of Scandinavia.

i am also not sure about maybe including Poland as a nation, as world-wide it hasnt had that much of an influence.

	13-05-2003 08:31									#10
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Hmm... How about these civs added to the mix?

Americas
Mayans
Incas

Africa
Nubians
Mali

Southeast Asia
Khmer
Java

Mediteranean
Minoan
Phonecian

	13-05-2003 09:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Wittlich : Well, what I really didn't like in CtP, actually, was the complete lack of identity of the Civs. I like the Civ3's way better, because the animated leaderheads, UUs and Ci traits make them more unique However, I do think more Civs would be great for the next expansion

Spiffor, I agree with your philosophy. Though CTP lacked the feel of identity for the various civs, with today's technology, I feel that we can have the variety of civs (as offered in CTP) along with the leaderheads and "feel" of the unique civ (as offered in CIV3)...I, for one, don't think its too much to ask for in a game given today's programming advances along with higher capacity PCs.

	13-05-2003 11:56									#12
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While there may be strong arguments for adding more Euro civs, (Portugese, Dutch, etc.) I feel that Europe is already very well-represented in this one especially when you consider that whole regions of the world like Oceania and South America are completely empty.

I don't understand why some people say that the Americas are covered just because of the ancient civs that fell apart 500 years ago........I mean, how would you feel if someone told you that North America was represented with the Sioux and Iroquois???

That being said, I would include, limiting myself to 7:

Incas,
Israelis,
Polynesians,
Byzantines,
Aboriginal Australians,
Ethiopians,
Latin Americans.
(Religous, Militaristic)
Leader: Simon Bolivar
UU: Guerilla

After much wrangling, I decided that realistically if Firaxis gives us anything to represent modern day Latin America, it would be probably be only 1 slot therefore instead of just a Mexico or Columbia, I went with a big Latin American civ that would encompass all of them. (The way it was supposed to be, in my mind) Simon Bolivar would be the obvious leader.

On a side note, what would really be awesome would be if the faces of the people represent the diversity of Latin America. (EX, mostly whites in Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Indigenous in Mexico, Central America, and strong African populations in the Carribbean). Sooo, For example, instead of just one race when you pop open a city, there would be several, some white, some Indigenous/mixed and some African. I think they should do the same to the American civ and perhaps a few more.

Last edited by Senor Llera on 16-05-2003 at 22:48

	13-05-2003 12:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by raen1978 You think i am not fair? nationalistic nonesense? The proofs speak from them selfs... but one thing you be sure I endorse justice, even if is only a game... But besides all I only posted this because i wanted to reply to the other forum....but ok.... If you say that Polynesians must be represented, no problem with that, but must have some substancial information. But as I care I would like to have them all in Civilization. And you gonna say ->"edit it", and I say -> "problems with that, because are at least one problem, for example, edited civilizations dont enter in scores...." no hard feelings

None at all. I have having some issues (which I explained in another thread) and my hostility was not aimed at you.

You've got some good ideas there.

	13-05-2003 13:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Spiffor, I agree with your philosophy. Though CTP lacked the feel of identity for the various civs, with today's technology, I feel that we can have the variety of civs (as offered in CTP) along with the leaderheads and "feel" of the unique civ (as offered in CIV3)...I, for one, don't think its too much to ask for in a game given today's programming advances along with higher capacity PCs.

The Problem here is exactly the identity issue, if I had an powerful editor and scores entering in hall of fame I would be satisfied, because the rest of the game is all there

I think programmers of games are too much worried of doing things with better graphics, what is very good, but sometimes the information part is forgetted or they dont have time for it. But if they want i do it my self

	14-05-2003 04:49									#15
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"whole regions of the world like Oceania and South America are completely empty."

Incas?

on a side note, i think the mayans are too similiar to the aztecs for them to be considered until you look at many other civs.

	14-05-2003 05:18									#16
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I don't want Firaxis wasting their time on new civs.
Make them yourself, and push Firaxis to improve the AI.

	14-05-2003 14:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Randolph I don't want Firaxis wasting their time on new civs. Make them yourself, and push Firaxis to improve the AI.

As I said i can do all the civs I want, but are problems to put them in the game, problems to get them to work as like the other civs....

But I agree with you with the AI, I think the computer plays like brute force lol he is only preocupied in building cities and military units...

And one think I dont like too is when I reach arround 1900 and the turns (computer playing) last arround 5-10 minutes!! some times is even worst...

	14-05-2003 19:16									#18
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Adding civs is tricky. I mean, when does it stop?

I vote: mod it yourself or Firaxis make it moddable...

	14-05-2003 20:20									#19
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Civs?

Well, Poland seems to be rather controversial. The Poles want it in.

If any European civilizations should be put in, I think they must be Portugal and Holland (Stadholder Willem van Oranje).

Middle-eastern civ? Israel. King David. Slinger (fast archer).

Africa? Ethiopia. Haile Selassie...or perhaps one of the Queens. A fast pikeman.

Here's my list:

The Portuguese
The Dutch
The Polynesians
The Khmers
The Ethiopians
The Israelites
The Incas

That's 7 civs in all.

Byzantium should not be included, as Rome already covers it. Besides, on world map it would share the same capital with the Ottomans, which would be a rather strange thing indeed.

	14-05-2003 22:15									#20
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History Guy :
Don't you think the Mali are more adapted as an African Civ than the Ethiopians ? Sure, the Ethiopians had an organized government for about a millenium, but that's about it. In the case of the Mali, we can really talk about commerce, golden age etc.
Just my 2 cents

	14-05-2003 22:23									#21
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The Incas of course would be my top priority, followed closely by something like Mali. After that, I'd like to see something to start in the western part of North America -- the Hopi, maybe? Too bad we don't know anything about the Anasazi. The Sioux could work too. At any rate, something to fill up that landmass. The Maya would start basically on top of the Aztecs, so there's no point in having them.

I would like to see the Hebrews/Israel in, as they did have a whopping great effect on the rest of the world, an effect far out of proportion to their size/military power. Slinger is a good UU for them, as is Merkava.

As far as Eurpoean civilizations go, as others have said there are already enough. I could see an argument being made for the Dutch, the Poles and even the Portuguese, but the bottom line is that Europe is already crowded enough.

A southeast Asian/Pacific Island civ is a reeasonable choice, but I think you only need one or the other -- Khmer or Polyneisan, but not both.

As far as the Australian Aborigines go, well, I'm having a real hard time thinking of that as a civilization in the sense of building cities, inventing technology, making advances in art, culture and literature and conquering their neighbors -- they were hunter gatherers for eons and then got conquered by the first folks to come along. I think that status is best represented as a series of goody huts rather than a full-blown civilization. I'm not saying this to denigrate the Aborigines, since I know they had all kinds of interesting culture and oral traditions, but none of it rises to the level of a civilization in the Civ meaning of the term.

Last edited by Ubergeek on 14-05-2003 at 22:35

	14-05-2003 22:27									#22
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Ethiopians
Mayans
Polynesians
Hebrews

After that, I think you're adding civs just for the sake of adding civs.

	15-05-2003 03:35									#23
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I don't see why the Ethiopians should be included. The Nubians (a.k.a. "Kushites") and Mali, which were both extremely powerful empires.

The Incas and the Khmers should definitely be included.

	15-05-2003 11:46									#24
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i want many angry african tribes

like zulu

cheers

	15-05-2003 16:27									#25
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Basically, I want more non-Euro civs. However, include the Poles, to balance the Russians a little when playing on the World Map. Also, while Middle East is rather crowded already with Turks, Arabs, Persians, Babylonians and Egyptians, I feel the need for the Hebrews to be in too - just because.

So, what I'd have is:

Inca
Mayans
Poles
Mali
Ethiopians
Javans
Khmer
Hebrews

	15-05-2003 18:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect i want many angry african tribes like zulu cheers

and ethiopians and mali

cheers

	15-05-2003 20:13									#27
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Well, it looks like Firaxis is going to add another expansion pack, with 8 new civs. My suggestions:

Inca: industrious/militaristic. UU: archer with "all terrain as roads" So 2/1/1, but all terrain as roads. NASTY little bugger, eh?

Maya: religious/industrious. UU: ?

Khmer: dunno. UU: ?

Mali: dunno. UU: ?

Nubians: Industrious/? UU: ?

Hebrews: religious/militaristic. UU: Merkava? Or something ancient?

Polynesians: expansionist/scientific. UU: galley with added movement? Or can safely traverse sea?

Anasazi or another Amerind tribe (not the Sioux, though, since they already gave the MW to the Iroqouis): dunno, UU: ?

I'd like to see a re-alignment of the cultural groupings:

Sub-Saharan Africa: Mail, Nubia, Zulu
Ancient Med: Egypt, Babylon, Hebrews
Classical Med: Rome, Carthage, Greece, Persia, Celts*
Middle East: Turks, Arabs (hmm, a little thin here)
Europe: England, France, Germany, Russia, Scandanavia
Ancient Americas: Inca, Maya, plus civ to be named later
Later Americas: Aztecs, Iroquois, Americans**
Asia I: China, Japan, Mongols, Korea
Asia II: Khmer, Polynesians, Indians

* - Celts could be either "classical med" or "europe" The height of their power, though, fits with the ancient/classical time period.

** - Yeah, I know, America (if anything) is culturally European. But it doesn't belong in Europe either (if you don't like that it's in the game, just edit it out, btw)



-Arrian, rambling today

	15-05-2003 20:36									#28
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I'd make the Incas Exp/Ind, Mayans Rel/Sci and Hebrews Rel/Com.

	15-05-2003 20:39									#29
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Stefu,

The first two do make sense, especially the Inca. The Mayans could go either way, IMO. Industrious because they built Pyramids and those cool cities, but Scientific because of their work on Astronomy. I still think the Hebrews should be Rel/Mil. Ever read the Old Testament?

-Arrian

	15-05-2003 20:46									#30
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I'd like to see more culture groups as well as new civs :

British Isles: England, Celts
Western Europe: Spain, France, Germany
Eastern Europe: Scandanavia, Russia
Mediterranean: Greece, Rome, Hebrews
North Africa: Mali, Nubia, Egypt (*Nubians adopted some of Egyptian architecture and culture)
Mesopotamia: Babylon, Assyrians, Persia
Middle East: Turks, Arabs
East Asia: China, Japan, Korea
South Asia: India, Khmer, Java
North Americans: Iroquois, Americans
Central Americans: Aztecs, Mayans
South Americans: Chechapoya, Incas

These are two Civs I thought about in adding in a mod:

Mayans
*Mayans have the unique advantage of having 2 UUs early on
Leader: Pacal
Traits: Religious, Scientific
UU: Plumed Clubman (replaces warrior), Balamob Slingers (all terrain as roads ), Plumed Javelin Thrower (replaces swordsman; has ranged attack ability)

Nubians
Leader: Taharqa
Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist
UU: Nubian Archer (replaces archer), Archer of the Eyes (replaces longbowman), Nubian Camel Raider (replaces knight)