14-05-2003 14:07									#1
	2102 [Warning - Includes Large Image] Put an end to popups!

As you can see, this is how we've started out. That Rocky/Mineral is going to give us a great leg up when we get around to building projects, and hopefully the other Rocky there will turn into a Rocky/Mineral when we pop the pod.

What I'd like to do....

Move:
Build Base here.
Move CP2 north to build another base 2 tiles away.
Move CP3 south to build another base 2 tiles away.
Use a Scout to pop the pod. Send the other 2 scouts north/south with the pods

Build:
Set Uni. Base. to building a Former

	14-05-2003 14:23									#2
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I agree with Archaic's auggestion. However, another question we ened to answer is: What shall we research? We've already got Centauri Ecology, so if we intend to beeline for Ind. Auto (which I'd be in favour of), our next tech should be Industrial Base.

	14-05-2003 15:13									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic As you can see, this is how we've started out. That Rocky/Mineral is going to give us a great leg up when we get around to building projects,

We shouldn't count on that. This being a CMN map, most factions probably got a nice start position. Let's hope the Hive started w/out a mineral bonus, or they will be pumping prod like crazy.

quote: Move: Build Base here. Move CP2 north to build another base 2 tiles away. Move CP3 south to build another base 2 tiles away. Use a Scout to pop the pod. Send the other 2 scouts north/south with the pods

I agree. Perhaps we ought to move the scouts first - pop with twho backups if worms, and then move them to check if there's an energy bonus somewhere on that river - building University Base on a EB would give our science a tremendous boost.

A proposal - we rename University Base to something else, like Nauk Science Center upon settling. We then rename some other base to University Base. A little bit of subterfuge that costs us nothing and could prove useful until we're probed. I also think we should avoid settling coastal sqares with more than one or two bases - the Pirates can swoop in from beyond detector range, so coastal bases need big garrisons early.

quote: Build: Set Uni. Base. to building a Former

Quite.

	14-05-2003 15:19									#4
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus What shall we research? We've already got Centauri Ecology, so if we intend to beeline for Ind. Auto (which I'd be in favour of), our next tech should be Industrial Base.

Seeing how we are the intellectual elite of Planet, I'd say it's our duty to beeline for SotHB. Not only do we deny free tech to lesser well-endowed (intellectually speaking, of course ) factions, we lose only one step on the road to Ind. Auto if we be beeline for that immediately on getting SotHB. As added bonus we get tech to make our bases more efficient (rec. tanks) and to upgrade our scouts against natives for free (trance).

	14-05-2003 16:21									#5
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Hmm. IndAuto is tempting, but so are the Secrets of the Human Brain. Maybe go for the Secrets. Extra technology can never be a bad thing.

	14-05-2003 16:56									#6
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I'm leaning towards SotHB - for the Rec Commons we'd get along the way, if nothing else.

	14-05-2003 17:43									#7
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I'd be wanting to go to at least Industrial Economics first and hope for a credit pod pop, before going to try for SotHB. Rec. Commons are expensive for the initial startup phase, and in the early game we can survive easily enough with a citizen and a doctor in our size 2 bases anyway until we get around to putting up Commons, simply because that pop's already going to go soon enough with a CP.

In my experience, the Cyborgs can't get to SotHB before the Uni even when the Uni takes the Ind. Auto beline first, simply because they don't have the Network Nodes we do.

	14-05-2003 19:03									#8
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'grist for the mill' :

Remember who the AI are. Miriam starts with Social Psych, but can't research for 10 years. Have Roze and Miriam exchanged commlinks prior to departing the Unity? Would a cunning CMN do this and start the Angels off with researching Biogenetics? Just asking

And Roze, too already has Planetary Networks, and can start the VW anytime. How important is it for you to get the VW for drone control (remember it's on transcend level)

Just food for thought

Googlie (with just a friendly reminder not to forget the AI in your deliberations)

	14-05-2003 20:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie 'grist for the mill' : Remember who the AI are. Miriam starts with Social Psych, but can't research for 10 years. Have Roze and Miriam exchanged commlinks prior to departing the Unity? Would a cunning CMN do this and start the Angels off with researching Biogenetics? Just asking

......you evil bastard. That's just deviously sneaky. How much have you beefed up these AI though? My UoP on Transcend can easily outresearch the PK's to SotHB even when the PK's take the direct route and I take a detour to Ind. Eco. for Free Market and its substantial early game research boost from that lovely energy, but the AI's don't have the PK's efficiency worries, do they?...

quote: Originally posted by Googlie And Roze, too already has Planetary Networks, and can start the VW anytime. How important is it for you to get the VW for drone control (remember it's on transcend level) Just food for thought Googlie (with just a friendly reminder not to forget the AI in your deliberations)

......how many Rocky/Mineral did you give them? ^^;; AI's sometimes steal projects from unalert human players simply by starting them with low mineral production bases and running with them for a long time (Say, 30 turns) while the humans are concentrating on building their crawlers, intending to instabuild. The VW is of course extremely important to us, but how cruel are you going to be to us here? ^^;;;

	14-05-2003 20:47									#10
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Build here with the minerals and the nutrients around us. I agree with the idea of 'Nauk Science Center' at first. After we've built another base or so we can change it back to University Base. Sounds good to me.

I support all unethical research towards Secrets of the Human Brain. If you want me to chop up a brain or two and find out what's inside (i.e. the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything), I'll see what I can do.

Googlie, you're too kind to those vile, evil piglets who shot poor Capt. Garland.

	15-05-2003 00:02									#11
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So... decision time. Where do we beeline? I agree we'd be safe to jump for Ind. Eco and then go SotHB normally, but given the CMN warning above, I get a feeling we should really not ignore SotHB if we're going for it.

	15-05-2003 00:14									#12
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On the other hand, the Virtual World will be far more advantageous for us in the long run than Secrets. While I agree that we should try for Secrets if at all possible, there is the danger that if we neglect Planetary Networks the Data Angels will beat us to the Virtual World.

I'm not totally sure what to do, but if Archaic's experience suggests we'll still have a good chance at Secrets if we beeline to IndAuto first, I'm game.

	15-05-2003 05:50									#13
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Thing is..that's under normal conditions. When I get home later I'll do a test against the Angels and Cyborgs to see if another human player could do it. I don't expect the other factions to be so disiplined as us with base placement, etc, and I'd expect many of them to be dependant on Planned as well, but I guess we can't count on it.

	15-05-2003 06:32									#14
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Yeah, I forgot about the AI. The Virtual World has a cool video; does that count for anything?

	15-05-2003 07:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic How much have you beefed up these AI though? ......how many Rocky/Mineral did you give them? ^^;;

I actually had to dumb down the AI after my first playtest (I'd given the Angels and the Believers a monolith right beside their three bases - the B's spawned like rabbits while the A's outresearched the UoP and the Borgs for the first ten to fifteen turns (with the 2 monolith energy per base)

So I tinkered with their monoliths - but of course couldn't stop a monolith being pod-popped (well I could have, by checking off the "pods never produce monoliths" box in the Scenario settings, but eventually we'd be left with the pods just producing native life if we deselected everything else !!!)

Also had started them with a crawler on a forest tile per base for the minerals (lurking, so that the dumb AI doesn't use them for exploration - I've seen that quite often), but had to take them away as well.

So they are AI's with developing muscles, but not on steroids .....

G.

	15-05-2003 09:32									#16
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Tests completed.

Assuming we take an indirect route to SotHB (Stopping for Ind. Econ. and/or Plan. Nets....)

If given enough of a leg-up by the CMN, the Angels could potentially get SotHB first, however it's unlikely given that their tech choices will actually be constrained by what the game will allow.

The Cyborgs could potentially also beat us to it dispite our Nodes if they get a good starting location.

Basically.....it's pot luck. I played all those factions as I would play in an SP game, and that's not how the others would play them IMO. The AI certainly wouldn't.

If we take a direct route from the beginning, going for it, we're assured. If we take Ind. Base first, we can then take Biogenics and Social Psych (The game's going to force us to do it in that order) and get SotHB before anyone else. If we go for one of Plan. Nets or Ind. Econ, we take the risk of the game not giving us the proper tech on our next selections.

	15-05-2003 12:11									#17
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Well... if we can't go for Ind. Eco before SoftHB, then we should go straight for it. Ind. Base won't bring us any particular short-term advantages, and if we have to risk losing the Secrets if we go for it first (especially when we can get it instantly once we have the Secrets), then we should bypass it for now.

	15-05-2003 14:38									#18
	2102 EOT [Warning - Includes Large Image] Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Turn played.



Report:

• First Base established on landing site. Production set to formers.
  
• Scouts moved north and south. South square revealed as unsuitable for base site.
  
• Scout moved east, uncovered Monolith tile to our north east. Pod popped produced a 2nd Monolith. University Base worker moved to Monolith.
  
• Colony Pods moved North and East towards the viable base sites.
  

Last edited by Archaic on 15-05-2003 at 17:15

	15-05-2003 15:03									#19
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I think we ought to now build a base on the square 2 E from University Base, and another one on the river north of the second monolith. This will give us an nice energy boost from the rivers as well as the monlith, which will speed up our research (and increase our income) substantially.

	15-05-2003 15:29									#20
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Two monolites? My. We should consider the impact of pods never popping tech/artys - we can expect a fair amount of monolites, unit cloning, dimensional rifts, energy - and base production completion. Perhaps we should gamble on setting up our bases for rec.tanks and go pop-hunting?

Also, the base grid is óff for now. We need to exploit these monolites - they can give us comfortable growth rates in three bases. I'd go with GTs suggestion above.

Did we get to choose tech, btw?

	15-05-2003 15:43									#21
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quote: Did we get to choose tech, btw?

Nope. We wanted to get the turn posted ASAP (actually we were two hours late, but hopefully no-one will notice ), and since we don't need to pick until next turn, we decided not to so as to allow more time for discussion.

	15-05-2003 16:04									#22
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A wise decision.

From all I've read I'd be inclined to go for SotHB now. We should possibly discuss what wonders we shoot for though. The VW is a give for us and with human competiotion out there I'm afraid it'll be the only early game wonder we can pull off - although it'd be swell if we could get the weather paradigm as well. HGP is nice, but secondary, I think. I love the ME myself, but it's not essential either.

Long term, we have to plan for getting the HSA. Or else. We should try for the Supercollider and the Planetary datalinks too.

	15-05-2003 16:08									#23
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The VW is going to be absolutely essential for us if we want to keep our Drones udner control - and combined with FM and some Psych, it will do that job admirably. As for other SPs - you're right, we can probably write off most of the rest as being impossible to get, but I think we should try to grab the PTS, if we can. It would speed up our 'borg' strategy greatly.

As for the longer term - absolutely. We cannot afford to go without the HSA, and the science wonders would be a nice bonus too.

	15-05-2003 17:13									#24
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For the base placements, I was hoping to put the CP's 2E and 2N of University Base. That doesn't put the one at 2N on a river, but if we give it and Uni Base the monoliths, and 2E (Which itself in on a river anyway) the rainy/rolling/river.....

	15-05-2003 17:17									#25
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Frankly, I don't see any reason to put the second base 2N other than trying to be neat with base placement (which we'll be constrained from doing any by other factors). We'll get more energy (and a boost to income would allow us to eithe rbuild stuff faster or switch SE more easily), and I don't see what great advantages we'd get from not putting it on a river.

	15-05-2003 17:24									#26
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Well, I don't think we'll be that constrained by other factors if we're smart with formers. It might give us some bonuses in the short run, but I wouldn't have thought that'd be all that significant in the scheme of things.

	15-05-2003 17:27									#27
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Well, it'll give us quite a qsubstantial boost in the short term, and I can't see any long term drawbacks which would mean we shouldn't build it there.

	15-05-2003 17:51									#28
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I suppose it wouldn't too screw up the base placement plan......it's not as if it displaces a Borehole, which would be a significant problem.

	15-05-2003 19:36									#29
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Archaic et al:

Your screenshot was centered on the monolith (scout and colony pod) and not the base, so this is just a "stab in the dark"

Are you keeping your SE settings at 50:0:50?

The inefficiency penalty in the first ten turns or so is miniscule (few bases), and often a change to, say, 30:10:60 can drop the tech research time significantly - as much as from 5 years to 3 - (there is a "law of diminishing returns" where, say, a 20:0:80 split produces a worse result)

G.

	15-05-2003 20:17									#30
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You certainly seem to be favouring us Googlie....^^;;;

I hadn't heard about that early game switch of the sliders before, which rather embarasses me since I considered myself reasonably well informed on th strategy for this game. Obviously I'm nowhere near as good as I think. I suppose we can guarentee ourselves that the Drones will do this with the people running it, but the others.....well, if you've told them too, it's a certainty.