15-05-2003 01:47									#1
	Turn 56 Get a bigger avatar today!

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Researching map making at 100%
- Luxury Slider at 0%
- 92 gold cash, -1 gpt

Urgent questions & tasks:
FAM: Negotiations with GCA: MM+HBR for Myst+Poly
FAM: Negotiations with CDG: MM for Math+Philosophy on hold, CB for gold, NAP,
decorators: We have a Palace improvement coming to us. What d'ya say, can we upgrade the cave?

Unit movement & actions:
N1 'MerZenary' to move E-E (6-6) to a strategic, central location
N2 'Mao' to move S (2), escorting settler
'Settler II' to move S (2), then E (6)
W2 'BigFree' fortified, waiting for GCA to scream
W3 'Alva' to move W (4)
W4 'Theseus' to skip turn
W5 'BFW' fortified
W6 'Hagbart' to move SE (3), escorting Worker 'EVC'
W7 'WhiteBandit' to skip turn
W8 'not_panag' fortified in Apolyton

Economy:
Apolyton building warrior.
Mingapulco building barracks.
Banatopia building granary.
Incensity building archer; shall be switched to Barracks if Morris leaves the iron hill peacefully.

WF:
Apolyton: 2, 3 (change: 33->3)
(to allow the new Bananatopia labourer to use a 2-shield tile... Apolyton will not need it to finish the warrior)

Workers
Worker1 'Dan' continues road (1)
Worker2 'Monkee' to move E-NE-N (6-9-8), then road/mine ??
Worker3 'panag' to move NE (3-6-8), then road/mine ??
Worker4 to be named 'EVC' and move SE (3), then road

Diplomacy:
CDG: send, but not accept Ceremonial Burial
CDG: NAP expired. Talking about renewal - draft in works.
GCA: NAP in effect (fm Turn 29).

Comment, please, many "plans" (especially those marked with '??') are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.
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Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results.

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Last edited by vondrack on 15-05-2003 at 23:53

	15-05-2003 03:07									#2
	Re: Turn 56 Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Urgent questions & tasks: FAM: Negotiations with GCA: MM+HBR for Myst+Poly FAM: Negotiations with CDG: MM for Math+Philosophy, NAP decorators: We have a Palace improvement coming to us. What d'ya say, can we upgrade the cave?

Negotiations were completed a few turns ago with GCA for MM + HBR in exchange for Myst + Poly.

Negotiations with CDG for a NAP are in process and we have sent over our proposal to them, and await their response.

Negotiations with CDG for Math + Philo will be put ON HOLD until we are fairly certain that they are researching at an acceptable rate. It does us no good to commit to getting Math and Philosophy from them if they won't get it for eons, especially if another teams (CFC?) gets those techs first and wants to trade. We need assurances that they will keep up with us in the tech race or else our waiting for them to actually finish their research will slow us down and keep us from researching techs that are beyond Philosophy (Republic) and Math (Currency).

--Togas

	15-05-2003 07:04									#3
	Remove this text

I put a clause in the tech trade deal that ensures that they would have to do some research at a reasonable rate. They pay like 3 gpt if they don't have it done in 20 turns from the turn the deal is signed, of course the same applies to us. It gives them some incentive to actually start researching something now, since we are offereing a deal. Maybe they'll stay at 0% research for longer if we don't submit a proposal like we said we would. They may be waiting for the proposal so that they have a path to follow.

Let's send it as it reads and see what they say, it can't hurt.

	15-05-2003 16:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

With one quick investigation, we could find out if they are researching again, could we not? Or how many immortals were stored up in their capital, which is another important piece of info we could use.

I'd also be VERY surprised if they agreed to, or later honored, any sort of penalty clause. Frankly, I think if someone threw that kind of bill in front of me, I'd be a little insulted. No real reason other than male ego, but if the folks at Elucidia are thinking like that too....

	15-05-2003 18:46									#5
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Let's talk openly with them about the possibility that the research might take too long. Maybe they feel the same way, and maybe they'll agree to such a "penalty clause".

I agree with F-P that if we throw it in front of them just like that, they might not like it.

	15-05-2003 18:54									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Or we could answer the "are they doing research" and "are they preparing for war" questions ourselves with one simple use of our embassy. It's not that expensive, and would give us some definitive answers. It'd be mighty silly if we were preparing for a war when they just happened to have research off for one turn in order to get an upgrade out quicker.

	16-05-2003 01:12									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

We'll be able to tell if they are preparing for war with zero research by the appearance, or lack thereof, of new cities.

They have one city not connected by road (warrior producer). They have one city that is a basket case production wise (OGRT2K).

If they are building settlers it will be from Elucidus. If Elucidus is building settlers, they are not on a major drive for war, they simply don't have the production base. The question then becomes, how often do we expect to see a new city pop up?

	17-05-2003 02:04									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Why did we move the Merc there? If they want to trigger our GA now, we have just given them a fine opportunity to do it. I know its to guard the settler and the archer wont be ready for a while. But they arent going to kill an elite warrior in jungle with a conscript.

One other point. CDG has a terrible production base, Other than their cap and they cant build any more cities without going in the jungle. They have one city with >1 grass avaible, we have 4. Building warriors to upgrade will only take them so far Eventually they will either have to a) keep research near 0 and get all techs by trade, which doesnt seem to work after a while or build Immortals very slowly. My gut feeling is that they are going to rush GCA, bypassing tenita. The has to be a one-time rush deal. The cannot survive any kind of protracted conflict, even with immortals and a GA with it

	17-05-2003 02:36									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Better watch our front line. Remember, their goats are trained to kill.

	17-05-2003 08:15									#11
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Why did we move the Merc there? If they want to trigger our GA now, we have just given them a fine opportunity to do it. I know its to guard the settler and the archer wont be ready for a while. But they arent going to kill an elite warrior in jungle with a conscript.

So let them attack our NM. If nothing else, it will eliminate the whole sense of "I wonder what CDG is thinking" and we can get around to killing them off.

	17-05-2003 12:17									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Trip So let them attack our NM. If nothing else, it will eliminate the whole sense of "I wonder what CDG is thinking" and we can get around to killing them off.

That's one way to look at it!

	17-05-2003 18:59									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Trip So let them attack our NM. If nothing else, it will eliminate the whole sense of "I wonder what CDG is thinking" and we can get around to killing them off.

So, the MoW is in the business of taunting the other civs now?




Dominae

	17-05-2003 19:11									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Trip So let them attack our NM. If nothing else, it will eliminate the whole sense of "I wonder what CDG is thinking" and we can get around to killing them off.

hi ,

, a triggering a GA , ..... when they want it , ....

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 21:38									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae So, the MoW is in the business of taunting the other civs now?

If they're so worried about triggering our GA then they'll attack us anyways, and we will have our GA triggered anyways. Our NMs serve no purpose if we have to dance around with them so they don't attack them. We'll either go to war or we won't. That's how it will be.

	18-05-2003 02:16									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Agreed. Is that Num merc a liability or an asset? If you wanted IND/COM without any risk of premature GA popping, you should've chosen France. As it is, Nums are meant to be used, and I don't think Elucidia is dumb enough to intentionally trigger our GA now when they wouldn't live to see the results of it, long-term, and they know that.

	18-05-2003 02:33									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Our Mercs are being "used" just fine as is, as deterrents to an attack. Do you think CDG would have thought twice about attacking us if we were France? Just think how afraid we are of their Immortals...surely they should have some fear of our Mercs, too.

Delaying our GA is a good thing (even if by a turn). There is no need to give CDG the opportunity to ruin us without repercussion (would we try to conquer CDG if they blew our GA and played defensively after that?).


Dominae

	18-05-2003 02:39									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Agreed. Is that Num merc a liability or an asset? If you wanted IND/COM without any risk of premature GA popping, you should've chosen France. As it is, Nums are meant to be used, and I don't think Elucidia is dumb enough to intentionally trigger our GA now when they wouldn't live to see the results of it, long-term, and they know that.

hi ,

wait a min , it could be that they want us to trigger our GA , .... this way we can use it anymore , ....

have a nice day

	18-05-2003 05:02									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Status:

Patzinal warrior moved to Bananatopia 6. We are going to have to deal with him. Hagbart is adjacent.

Elucidean cedric the worker began a road.

BigFree is fortified adjacent to Tenita. GCA has expressed dismay and asked him to be moved into the desert. We should do so.

btw, I believe the plan is not to move the Merc adjacent to Morris(?) the CDG warrior. Hagbart and alva can both move to the target tile for Ironcity and there is therefore no chance of CDG capturing the settler or tripping our GA.

	18-05-2003 05:09									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We should move BF towards CDG, since we will be bring him home shortly through their terr.

quote: btw, I believe the plan is not to move the Merc adjacent to Morris(?) the CDG warrior. Hagbart and alva can both move to the target tile for Ironcity and there is therefore no chance of CDG capturing the settler or tripping our GA.

That's the way I would do it.

	18-05-2003 08:29									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Some analysis, using BFM's forumulas (see Strat Forum thread) for military streingth of CDG:

We are average compaired to them. We have 7 warriors and 2 NM's giving us an Army streingth of 11.64. That means that they can have a minumum of 9.31 (80%) or a maximum of 14.55 (125%). We Know that they have atleast 1 Immortal and 2 warriors. This analysis ASSUMES that they do NOT have any spearmen.

Minimum: 1 Immortal & 6 warriors.

Maximum: 1 Immortal & 11 Warriors OR 2 Immortals & 7 Warriors OR 3 Immortals & 4 Warriors.

I would hazard to say that it's closer to in between the max and min, as they were weak before they upgraded a warrior to Immortal

Oh, when we finally upgrade our Warriors to Swordsmen, we will increase our Army Value by 1.72 for each upgrade and they will have an increase of 2.32 for everyone that they also upgrade.

E_T

	18-05-2003 09:07									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Actions:

Upgraded the cave in the Greco-Roman motif.

W3 'Alva' moves 4 (W)
N1 'MerZenary' moves 6-3 to the game tile. Fortifies.
W4 'Theseus' skips turn
W7 'WhiteBandit' skips turn
W5 'BFW' fortified
W2 'BigFree' moves 3 (SE) to get out of GCA territory.
N2 'Mao' moves 2 (S), escorting settler
'Settler II' moves 2 (S)
W6 'Hagbart' moves 3 (SE), escorting Worker 'EVC'
Worker4 'EVC' moves 3 (SE)
W8 'not_panag' moves to Bananatopia.
Worker2 'Monkee' moves 6-3-3 onto forest
Worker3 'panag' moves 9 (NE)

Economy:
Apolyton building warrior.
Mingapulco building barracks.
Banatopia building granary.
Incensity building archer; shall be switched to Barracks if Morris leaves the iron hill peacefully.

WF:
Apolyton: 3, 6 3. Apolyton does not need the game for growth in 2. Apolyton does not need a 2 shield tile to finish the warrior.
Mingapulco: 9 9, 6 9. Mingapulco grows earlier if we use the game. The shield lost this turn and next is not required to finish the barracks in 5.

Also, this configuration allows for 2 open 2 shield tiles for Bananatopia, in case the barb moves to Bananatopia 9.

Workers
Worker1 'Dan' continues road (1)
Worker2 'Monkee' moved
Worker3 'panag' moved
Worker4 'EVC' moved

Diplomacy:
CDG: Ceremonial Burial sent, unaccepted

	18-05-2003 09:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Third in Productivity is a very good sign.

Everything else looks good too.


Dominae

	18-05-2003 10:03									#25
	Tired of ads?

I gave NYE the go ahead for the 2 worker movements (Monkey and Panag) and the WF changes in Poly and Ming. Ming will be changed back in 2 turns, and it won't delay the growth and the barracks will still be built in 5 turns.

Because the Tile that Panag moved it isn't probibly going to be worked for some time (settler won't be to the horse city for a while), We will have it mined and then roaded.

Monkey will help get the Granary built sooner in Banana, as the extra sheild that will come with it's pop increase will be wasted.

E_T

	18-05-2003 10:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Because the Tile that Panag moved it isn't probibly going to be worked for some time (settler won't be to the horse city for a while), We will have it mined and then roaded.

Might I suggest Road then Mine? This way movements into and out of that tile are easier, in case plans change (i.e. Worker panag is needed somewhere else).


Dominae

	18-05-2003 20:35									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by E_T Some analysis, using BFM's forumulas (see Strat Forum thread) for military streingth of CDG:

This is exactly the purpose for which I developed my research, but do not use the formulas yet, please. I need to do more testing to see if the hypothesis holds.

	18-05-2003 20:39									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

BFM, It does give us a rough estimate. If anything, it will gve anyone who is panicing (or near enough to it) some figures to chew on. Information is always key to the working of a Democracy, the opposite is a mob.

E_T

	18-05-2003 20:42									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Might I suggest Road then Mine? This way movements into and out of that tile are easier, in case plans change (i.e. Worker panag is needed somewhere else). Dominae

That will be good, too. I just wasn't certain as to when the next settler would be built, but with Poly doing a NM first, it will be a bit, so road that tile first.

E_T