15-05-2003 05:21									#1
	experienced player annoyed by a rule Suffering from ads?

Hi there,

I just fired up SMAC after awhile away. I gotta say, every single time I come back I wonder why I left.

But, I just experienced a rule in the game that bugs me. The "zone of control" rule. Where you can't move a unit to a square next to another factions unit.

Now, SMAC describes this "zone of control" feature as an attempt to simulate the difficulty of moving units near enemy units........they use the word enemy...

But, this rule applies to all units. Even if you aren't at war with a faction, the movement restrictions are there.

I have no problem with the rule, but it doesn't stick to its own definition.

If I am not at war, why am i considered an enemy?

	15-05-2003 05:34									#2
	Re: experienced player annoyed by a rule Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Hi there, I just fired up SMAC after awhile away. I gotta say, every single time I come back I wonder why I left.

wow, how many posts have i seen that have begun this way

as for your question...i really don't know, that's just the way it's always been in civ2 and civ1. perhaps you can tweak that in the alpha.txt?

	15-05-2003 05:37									#3
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Anything but allied forces is enough to make your guys nevous.

	15-05-2003 07:56									#4
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IIRC, in Civ I, all opponents, whether friendly or just subject to a truce, would move their units right next to your bases and fortify there - preferrably on a mountain peak. Without zone of controls and bunkers, there was no way to defend onself from this unfair onslaught.

(Man I miss Civ I. That really was the ultimate game. I remember it took me years to win my first game at the highest levels.)

	15-05-2003 13:08									#5
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As Ned said, its a game balance solution.

And remember that every nation is your enemy, allied or not.

	15-05-2003 17:34									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You think the Americans would be pleased if Russia moved a nuclear sub to their shoreline ?

	15-05-2003 18:02									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm so used to ZOC from SMAC, CtP, CIV1+2 etc. that I forget I havn't got it in Civ3, and I get really pissed off when my inpenetrable defensive line is easily bypassed

-Jam

	15-05-2003 23:17									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, ZoC's are there to make it possible for you to defend your border without putting a unit on EVERY SINGLE TILE, and eliminating them from CivIII was one of the more vast gameplay mistakes made in that game. ZoC's make getting to a superior position important, where as without them, any fortified position can merely be walked around unfought, which is ludicrous to say the least.

If you're having trouble with rival units stacked up at your your border, build one or two probe teams to help out. They ignore ZoC's, and once they've entered a square, any friendly unit can join them unhindered.

As other posters have mentioned, a treaty-bound faction is _still_ your enemy, or at least your rival. We have numerous treaties with China, and conduct trade with them in vast amounts, but you had better believe we don't want them parking their tanks 15 miles from one of our major cities.

	16-05-2003 04:02									#9
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I guess it is a good rule, but I just got overly annoyed when i had to constantly take an out of the way route to get my colony unit to where i wanted to go, which was right near my first city, but the spartans just moved in a bunch of forces to scout around (no war) my territory and it got annoying.

But, I guess it's not a bad rule, since i also hate having to put units on every tile as mentioned.

oh well

	16-05-2003 22:42									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Well, just remember that if they're inside your border, you can call Santiago up on the commlink and tell her to recall her troops out of your territory. More aggressive factions will often use this as a pretext for a vendetta, but early on, most factions tend to be a bit more cooperative. An alternative to this is to place some of _your_ troops in their territory, then wait for them to phone you up, and when the demand that you withdraw your troops, insist that they reciprocate.

	17-05-2003 15:10									#11
	Clarification of ZOC Effect on Movement Support Apolyton

"Enemy" includes Vendetta, Truce, and Treaty.

1. You can move into an enemy ZOC. Otherwise you could never attack.
   
2. You cannot move from one square in an enemy ZOC to another square in an enemy ZOC, even if it's held by a different unit.
   
3. You can move freely into, between, and through ZOCs held by your Pact-mates.

quote: Manual, chapter 4, pages 90-91, Movement: Zones of Control Bases and land and air units exert a "zone of control" that restricts movement in their immediate vicinity, reflecting the difficulty of moving with an enemy nearby. A zone of control affects the eight squares immediately adjacent to a base or unit. A zone of control has no effect on units of the same faction, units of factions sharing a pact of Brotherhood, sea units, air units, or probe teams. Restrictions to Movement A unit cannot move directly from one enemy zone of control to another. A unit can enter or exit an enemy zone of control freely as long as both squares are not enemy controlled. A unit can always move into a base square, or into a square containing at least one friendly unit, regardless of zones of control. Probe team units always ignore zones of control. An advanced special ability - the Cloaking Device - makes a unit effectively invisible to the enemy, thereby allowing it to ignore zones of control.

I noticed a difference here:
A standard rule in tabletop wargames (and most computer wargames) is that your unit must cease all movement upon entering an enemy ZOC. If you have MPs remaining, you can initiate a battle, but you cannot move any further.
In SMAC, though, you can move away on the same turn if you have MPs remaining. In many games I have had an AI enemy artillery rover move up a road, enter a space adjacent to one of my units, turn around and move one space back down the road, then fire off a barrage. Although annoying, it's pretty darn smart .

	22-05-2003 03:43									#12
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I have always liked ZOC rules-- They are easy to bypass with the intelligent use of probes or airpower.

It makes sense in game terms as well that you have difficulty moving across lands occupied by someone nearby. If you want free movement, make a pact with them

	22-05-2003 03:47									#13
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well, as i said, i have no problem with the rule, except that it doesn't adhere to its own definition.

Unless its definition of an enemy is EVERYONE automatically unless you have a pact with 'em.


I love the fact that there is a rule that simulates the inability to move near enemy units.

But, my problem lies with the rule ALWAYS being applied. Whether the unit you are near is an enemy or not.

That was all I was saying.

	22-05-2003 04:21									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It would be nice to have a diplomatic option to remove ZOC vs. someone w/o having to pact... maybe in a later game.

	22-05-2003 04:24									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, I don't know about the utility of that, frankly the ONLY reason I'm reluctant to pact with someone is that I don't want their grubby units getting all in my territory.

	22-05-2003 04:25									#16
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i like that idea!

	22-05-2003 05:55									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You can ask a pactmate to leave, CEO. They're usually quite decent about it.

	23-05-2003 08:29									#18
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also I believe that a pactmates unit will be automaticallytransported away if the pact is ended

	23-05-2003 11:07									#19
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Flubber, yes, at the end of a pact all units are removed from the former mate's territory. The problem is that it doesn't work exactly. Sometimes I get formers or so removed from unoccupied or my own territory. I think this is when the mate's sea bases are close.

	23-05-2003 20:14									#20
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adalbertus

The rule is essentially that any unit you have that is closer to one of their bases than one of your own is "sent back"- I believe that this does not apply to units on your own territory ( so an adjacent seabase should not cause movement of units on your land but would cause many seagoing units to move) but I have not tested this point.

THis rule has implications whenever you want to hit another faction. You have to break pact before getting units into position. Like the ZOC rules, pacting is the big thing

	23-05-2003 21:40									#21
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quote: I believe that this does not apply to units on your own territory

I could take an oath on it but I could not bet: It happened also on my territory (but far from my base). Maybe it was on the "overlap" of a normal mate's sea base radius and my own land territory.