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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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We need to decide how to proceed. Normally I'd be in favor of continuing the regular discussions in the radical idea thread, but IMHO it is taking too long.
We have to make our decision. I won't mind if we decide to 'Drive Vox to the sea', I just think we need to make up our minds, and I want to know where the team is headed.
For reference, here is a message that I suggested that I send to the person in Vox who contacted me about peace. Its purpose is to let them know what we would expect to receive for peace, and make them make the first move and send the first formal proposal.
quote:
You showed renewed interest in peace, so I'm letting you know what sort of thing GS would agree to:
- GS gets everything up to and including Eliopolis. Eliopolis will be abandoned with a settler by GS and relocated in order not to block the 1-tile isthmus.
- After the treaty is signed, Vox and GS will remain in a state of war in-game for 10 turns. The reasoning behind this is that GS is currently enjoying a happiness bonus due to negative war weariness and would like to extend it.
- GS will reserve the right to attack any Voxian troops located within GS cultural borders by any means it sees fit during and after negotiations, excluding specific cases that Vox would discuss with GS. Should our relations reach normalcy, the same rule would apply to Vox.
Please understand that we do not see peace as a viable option unless these terms are met. They are not negotiable - however, we are open for negotiations on other issues.
Additionally, on the matter of iron: we realize that taking all the land up to and including Eliopolis would leave Vox without iron. Therefore, we are willing to trade iron to Vox completely free of charge for as long as we are in peace, meaning starting from 10 turns after this treaty is signed. In case of emergency, e.g. Vox is invaded by Bob and needs iron for essential upgrades, GS will make an exception and begin iron trade immediately; however, once the issue is resolved, Vox will have to declare war on GS again, only in-game of course, to complete the 10 turns requirement.
Finally, we ask that you do not delay the progress of the game intentionally because of these negotiations. Should you do so, we will cease contact at once. How about this new bit?
Please discuss this within your team, add whatever you want to add upon the concept described above and send back a formal message detailing your idea of a possible peace treaty between GS and Vox.
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:28
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I voted for sending them unofficial demands, to see what their reaction is. Although I really expect that they will send them back with the footnote 'over my cold, decaying body', or something equivalent.
Things is, they'd be right, too. Although we won't make peace on terms that leave Vox as a threat to us, any such peace essentially means that they are out of the game as contenders, and will be wiped out by us or one of the Bob civs before too long. Even if we have no plans to kill them, they will assume we do, and will fight now. So I don't see peace happening unless they are all bored of the game.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Although I really expect that they will send them back with the footnote 'over my cold, decaying body', or something equivalent.
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That can be arranged. 
quote:
Things is, they'd be right, too. Although we won't make peace on terms that leave Vox as a threat to us, any such peace essentially means that they are out of the game as contenders, and will be wiped out by us or one of the Bob civs before too long. Even if we have no plans to kill them, they will assume we do, and will fight now. So I don't see peace happening unless they are all bored of the game. |
I don't know.
On one hand, I probably wouldn't accept it if I were them... but on the other hand, Vox might get cowardly and agree to our terms, with minor revisions perhaps. They too must be taking note of the scary curve in our power graph - they must be realizing our production capacity, and now that we have Sun Tzu's, they must fear that we'll be overrunning them with Medieval Infantry backed with Pikemen soon and then they won't be so lucky to get an offer for peace anymore.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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Could the person who voted 'other' specify please?
Edit: x-posted with Aeson.
Last edited by Shiber on 16-05-2003 at 20:00
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Dominae
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I vote for driving them off the continent.
There will come a point when our military is Strong compared to theirs, and most of us will feel sorry for Vox. I say we should put those feelings aside and finish the job.
Down to a handful of cities, they'll hardly be an asset to us, and we'll just have to clean up later anyway. If anyone can think of a reason why we should keep them alive (other than "we can use our GA for other things", which I'm already considering), I would like to hear it.
Once their Immortal stacks are under control, Vox will become a punching bag for us. Before they can get us into any diplomatic trouble, I suggest we just punch that bag until it splits at the seams (sorry for the over-aggressive imagery...I'm not that angry, really).
Dominae
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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KILL MAIM DESTROY PILLAGE BURN!!! 
Seriously, though... I honestly think we should continue beating them to a bloody pulp in-game, while informing them via diplomatic channels that peace *might* be a possibility, but it would have to be a really juicy offer. And then make them come up with an offer. A SPECIFIC offer, not a general "ok, we're willing to be your vassal... um... what do you think?" I don't want to put ourselves in a bargaining position where we're essentially bidding against ourselves (we make an offer, they say "no, too much" then we make revised offer, etc). That's bad negotiating strategy, IMO. Make THEM come up with an offer, and then we can come back with either a counteroffer or merely a "No, sorry."
So I voted for the third option.
-Arrian
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:28
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I don't think there has to be a peace treaty, nor any sort of bargaining. Given Vox's agression, false accusations and deception, we can only accept their unconditional surrender, following the guidelines Shiber proposes in his message.
This means that the agreement is non-negotiatiable, and that it is brought unofficially before we ratify it.
Even if they don't accept it, it will instill doubt and uncertanty in their hearts, and will make our job at taking what is left of Vox's army in our turf much easier, as Vox might think they have a way out of this war- so why dedicate themselves for an all out offensive at this point?
It will save us alot of trouble if Vox keeps it's head down and lets us pound them slowly but surely, untill they finally break.
But, I agree that we need to wait a few turns, so that we gain some more on them, and than propose a unconditional surrender, in which they give us what we actually want, without negotiations.
"Other" from me.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Down to a handful of cities, they'll hardly be an asset to us, and we'll just have to clean up later anyway.
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Vox apparently has all kinds of fantasies of immortals fighting alongside WCs on Bob turf. Of course, none of us sees Vox as an asset - but I still think that getting everything up to and including the neck for free is better than having to fight for it.
As much as I care about Vox, we can sign some sort of a deal now and take them out later. Naturally, the deal will have to be worded in a way that will allow us to legally do so, and we must not encourage their fantasies of becoming our vassals for the rest of the game or fighting alongside GS against some common enemy.
quote:
Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I am against entertaining any idea of peace untill we have captured and renamed D'Ville, then on our way to the neck by ellioplis. Then we can invite them to make an offer good enough that we want to take it.
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That's the problem - once we go all the way until Eliopolis, they'll be left with nothing more of value to give us... unless we sign an agreement where they give us every city but their capital and we found a city on some yet unoccupied area in one of Lego's landmasses, give it to Vox and then conquer their capital - effectively, sending them to exile in Legoland.
To sum up, what I think is best for us right now is to come to Vox with clear demands: give us everything up to and including Eliopolis, we will attack your troops still in our territory and remain in in-game war for X turns to enjoy the war unweariness effect, then we'll provide you with a supply of iron, END OF DISCUSSION, accept this offer or it's game over for you. If they don't accept it immediately, continue the war as planned, catapulting on and killing their immortals, and at some point pressure them with a message such as 'Our previous offer remains for this turn. However, starting from next turn, we will add the condition of one Voxian slave unit transferred to GS for every additional Voxian military unit that we kill'. Get them to end the war on their part as soon as possible so we can focus on long-term issues such as building the Colossus during our GA and before Legoland does (anyone who wants to see Legoland get their peaceful GA after we've blown half of our own GA on units, raise your arms) and building a force of fast movers and galleys to destroy Vox in a just few turns about 20-25 turns after we've reached the agreement, and then direct this highly mobile naval invasion force at RP while the rest of the world is still in shock and is not expecting an attack from GS which has just finished a war.
Last edited by Shiber on 17-05-2003 at 01:17
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zeit
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Meet my blade!
Sep 2002
time: 06:28
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quote:
Oh, and we don't 'ask' them to propose peace, we tell them it is up to them if they wish to sue for peace and to come up with an offer. We go from there. We decide as a team whether to negotiate, or not. We do not begin negotiating a single minute before the team decides to do so.
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It does make sense, sort of like telling them: "You started this war for whatever the reason was, and you'll have to take the first step in ending it...". We should also add that we want to find a reasonable solution that would end this war, but... (you are untrustworthy, you'll have to show us you really want to end the war, you'll have to pay dearly for what you have done, etc... all in a polite yet stern way).
I was also thinking- i've had enough of the spam BS, why not turn this war into a respectable afair, a-la-18th century european wars... 
It would be a refreshing change: war-diplomacy. This doesn't mean we have to really have to negotiate, just change the tone... in the public board as well (that's the drawback... ).
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:28
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When the time comes, I prefer a position of strength:
"How yet resolves the governor of the town?
This is the latest parle we will admit;
Therefore to our best mercy give yourselves;
Or like to men proud of destruction
Defy us to our worst: for, as I am a soldier,
A name that in my thoughts becomes me best,
If I begin the battery once again,
I will not leave the half-achieved Harfleur
Till in her ashes she lie buried.
The gates of mercy shall be all shut up,
And the flesh'd soldier, rough and hard of heart,
In liberty of bloody hand shall range
With conscience wide as hell, mowing like grass
Your fresh-fair virgins and your flowering infants.
What is it then to me, if impious war,
Array'd in flames like to the prince of fiends,
Do, with his smirch'd complexion, all fell feats
Enlink'd to waste and desolation?
What is't to me, when you yourselves are cause,
If your pure maidens fall into the hand
Of hot and forcing violation?
What rein can hold licentious wickedness
When down the hill he holds his fierce career?
We may as bootless spend our vain command
Upon the enraged soldiers in their spoil
As send precepts to the leviathan
To come ashore. Therefore, you men of Vox,
Take pity of your town and of your people,
Whiles yet my soldiers are in my command;
Whiles yet the cool and temperate wind of grace
O'erblows the filthy and contagious clouds
Of heady murder, spoil and villany.
If not, why, in a moment look to see
The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
And their most reverend heads dash'd to the walls,
Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
At Herod's bloody-hunting slaughtermen.
What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy'd?"
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by zeit
It does make sense, sort of like telling them: "You started this war for whatever the reason was, and you'll have to take the first step in ending it...". We should also add that we want to find a reasonable solution that would end this war, but... (you are untrustworthy, you'll have to show us you really want to end the war, you'll have to pay dearly for what you have done, etc... all in a polite yet stern way). |
I have to say, no, no, no. Sorry, but the consensus of the team in an earlier poll was either 'no peace' in which case we do not want to invite them into further discussion, or an extremely harsh peace in which case it is far too early to encourage discussion.
In either case, encouraging discussion at this point is detrimental. We do not want them to know our outlook. It will make them fight like lions. The longer they feel they can get out of this on terms favourable to them, the longer we will have an easier time of things in the field. Saying anything other than that the ball is in their court to sue for peace and offer terms, given the decision of the team, would be folly if we were at all honest with them.
Believe me, I wish there were another path open to us. I am a proponent of peace. However, I must accept the verdict of that earlier poll and consider how best our team can manage the situation given the will of the majority. If and when Vox puts something on the table, that will be the time to revisit the issue. Not before.
quote:
I was also thinking- i've had enough of the spam BS, why not turn this war into a respectable afair, a-la-18th century european wars...
It would be a refreshing change: war-diplomacy. This doesn't mean we have to really have to negotiate, just change the tone... in the public board as well (that's the drawback... ). |
This is a good plan.
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16-05-2003 17:33
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