16-05-2003 23:16									#31
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quote: Still, I believe the only way this will descend into the use of force is if NK does not change course and the Chinese give us a green light. However, listening to commentators on TV, it appears that this could happen very soon, months, rather than years.

I would find it highly unusual that China would give us a "green light". Historically, they have been pretty paranoid about armies approaching their boarders for any reason. I would think that they would be more likely to take care of the problem themselves.

	16-05-2003 23:19									#32
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Last I heard the Chinese said their relationship with the murderer Kim "was as close as lips and teeth".

Last edited by Oerdin on 17-05-2003 at 01:32

	16-05-2003 23:26									#33
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Unification by Force..

	16-05-2003 23:27									#34
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No. Let them have their nukes - it might convince to disband/reintegrate some of their conventional forces. And they have stated, quite consistently, they will cease their nuclear programe if the US gives a written non-aggression treaty.

If they embrace the free trade approach and start selling nukes to the highest bidder - I think we have a problem. An embargo would be the first step of containment, but the current US administration would not stop there. I have the distinct feeling they would be on their own though.

Given Germany's constitution, they will probably regard it as no problem of theirs. They haven't even got a permanent UN Sec Council seat, so why get involved in "Freedom" operations?

	16-05-2003 23:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy No. Let them have their nukes - it might convince to disband/reintegrate some of their conventional forces. And they have stated, quite consistently, they will cease their nuclear programe if the US gives a written non-aggression treaty.

Yeah...just like they kept the 1994 agreements, right?

	16-05-2003 23:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy No. Let them have their nukes - it might convince to disband/reintegrate some of their conventional forces. And they have stated, quite consistently, they will cease their nuclear programe if the US gives a written non-aggression treaty.

Yes, they would never lie to us.

	16-05-2003 23:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Yeah...just like they kept the 1994 agreements, right?

I wouldn't know. I don't speak Korean. But your government's lack of commitment to peace would have any rival reaching for the plutonium producing reactors at full speed ahead.

The medias current demonization frenzy of N Korea does not speak well of the possibility of peace in the region.

It is very easy to destroy and make enemies. It is very dificult to create and make friends.

Just taking the easy path is not going to do anyone any good - and as stated, if you want any help with a war in Korea, you are unlikely to get it.

Even S Korea favours the peace and reconcilliation approach. Maybe it's because they've got a lot to lose? You've already set most Muslim nations against you (outside of Kuwait). You want the Chinese up in arms too?

The US should learn to quit while its ahead.

	17-05-2003 00:47									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy And they have stated, quite consistently, they will cease their nuclear programe if the US gives a written non-aggression treaty.

If they give us thier nuclear stockpiles, any bombs they've made, submit to a rigorous inspection regime to prevent cheating again, and publically renounce such weapons then we can reasonablly decide to give them what they want.

	17-05-2003 01:00									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If they give us thier nuclear stockpiles, any bombs they've made, submit to a rigorous inspection regime to prevent cheating again, and publically renounce such weapons then we can reasonablly decide to give them what they want.

I just cannot, for the life of me, think why N Korea owning nukes freaks the US out so much.

If they use them first, they are history within 30 minutes.

What is the problem? I can understand the US being unhappy about N Korea selling such weapons on. Hence my reference to containment in an earlier post.

But N Korea owning nukes stabilizes the Korean situation. First side to make a move gets atomized.

Could it be this irrational fear stems from the fact they're Commies? So were the Russians - and they never nuked you.

	17-05-2003 01:06									#40
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N Korean regime must be destroyed, that's the bottom line. It's really shame that world community still tolerates something like that in 21st century.

	17-05-2003 01:06									#41
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On the Chinese, I think a deal can be struck if we provide some sort of guarantee that we totally get out of Korea after it is over. In other words, a united Korea becomes "neutral."

	17-05-2003 01:08									#42
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Chinese are afraid of US forces standing next to their border.


We could offer Chinese that we pull out or remain behind 38th parallel after the potential war, if they give us the green light.

	17-05-2003 01:20									#43
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Lord Merciless - that is the Al Qaeda view of the US. People fear what they do not understand and hate what they fear.

Ned - any non N Korean forces go over the 38th parrelel and China will rush 1000s of tanks and 100,000s of troops down the peninsular. They've been helping the N Koreans since before WW2 and they're not about to stab them in the back now.

Both of you - China will not tolerate any alteration of the status quo. You are playing with fire here for the sake of political correctness. The game is not worth the candle - CERTAINLY not to S Korea, which will be worst hit of your allies by any conflict.

	17-05-2003 01:22									#44
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When will you people learn that the world doesn't want you spreading your worldwide militant capitalist revolution?

	17-05-2003 01:36									#45
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No negotiations. No way, no how. They've lied so many times and we have no reason to believe they won't just lie again. You can only enter an agreement with a party you can be reasonably sure will keep up they're side of the deal.

The North Koreans have proven they will not do this.

	17-05-2003 01:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Lord Merciless - that is the Al Qaeda view of the US. People fear what they do not understand and hate what they fear. Ned - any non N Korean forces go over the 38th parrelel and China will rush 1000s of tanks and 100,000s of troops down the peninsular. They've been helping the N Koreans since before WW2 and they're not about to stab them in the back now. Both of you - China will not tolerate any alteration of the status quo. You are playing with fire here for the sake of political correctness. The game is not worth the candle - CERTAINLY not to S Korea, which will be worst hit of your allies by any conflict.

Cruddy, don't you think that I don't know that? We need the "permission" of China. Else, I am we will just repeat of the Korean war.

As to how to gain there permission, both Lord Merciless and I provided possible compromises that will respect China's concerns.

	17-05-2003 01:51									#47
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Ned, if the US administration doesn't get China's green light - or if they get the green light and find out China had it's fingers crossed behind it's back - you're country is going to be in a war it CANNOT win. Stalemate is the best you can hope for.

I don't want to see that. And I don't trust the current US administration's diplomatic abilities or objective perception to guide your nation when it comes to South East Asia.

The truly horrible part of this situation is that a lot of people would make a stack of money out of it - while a helluva lot of people suffered and died.

I just can't be a part of it. Sorry. I doubt if any other country can either.

	17-05-2003 02:07									#48
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I think it should be pointed out that there will be no invasion of North Korea unless they first attack the south. There will be no operation Korea freedom.

	17-05-2003 02:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Ned, if the US administration doesn't get China's green light - or if they get the green light and find out China had it's fingers crossed behind it's back - you're country is going to be in a war it CANNOT win. Stalemate is the best you can hope for. I don't want to see that. And I don't trust the current US administration's diplomatic abilities or objective perception to guide your nation when it comes to South East Asia. The truly horrible part of this situation is that a lot of people would make a stack of money out of it - while a helluva lot of people suffered and died.

If our offer is good enough, Chinese will jump on board. They are already too much integrated into our collective capitalistic system. In addition, we have Taiwan to bargain for. Finally, China would rather have SK at its border than NK, without US troops of course.

The South Korean approval of an invasion is the most crucial one. They will be one to provide most of the invasion force, they will be the one to liberate the North afterwards, and they will be the one to carry most of the casualties. I don't think we will carry out any pre-emptive strikes this time. If it ever comes to war, North Koreans will be the one firing the first shot.

It's possible for us to induce North Koreans to make the fatal mistake. We can start by performing a full-scaled land and naval blockade, we will put pressure on every country that buys weapons from them, then we can assembling a strike force around the peninsular. I bet Kim would sooner or later freak out and sign his own death warrant.

As for your Europeans, I have a word for all of you: you should hope that America wins all the coming wars, because our well-beings are intricablly linked. If we go down, so do you and vice versa.

	17-05-2003 02:12									#50
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Gulf of Tonkin 2, here we come...

I tried folks.

	17-05-2003 02:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I just cannot, for the life of me, think why N Korea owning nukes freaks the US out so much.

Can you really be that naive?

	17-05-2003 02:17									#52
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Dinodoc, so you can't verbalise it either?

	17-05-2003 02:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Dinodoc, so you can't verbalise it either?

Not true. I'm just speachless that you can not understand something so bleeding obvious that it even makes the South Korean government nervous.

	17-05-2003 02:27									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not true. I'm just speachless that you can not understand something so bleeding obvious that it even makes the South Korean government nervous.

So you CAN'T verbalise it. Do me a favour, and come up with just why the US (NOT S Korea) is so afriad of the N Koreans having nukes.

It's not as if the US could not retaliate 50 times over and still have 95% of it's nukes ready for action.

	17-05-2003 02:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Gulf of Tonkin 2, here we come... I tried folks.

There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam:

1. NK is isolated. Even the Chinese won't support them this time.

2. NK regime has no support in population. Its people and its military will abandon the regime as soon as they can see what bright future awaits them.

3. SK is much stronger than NK.

4. The US is much stronger compared to Vietnam era.

	17-05-2003 02:32									#56
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Whatever happened to the notion that nations would seek objectivity, and not force their form of government and culture over anyone else, particularly those that are unfamiliar or undesiring of it?

Ah well.. history will surely judge such attitudes as idiocy.

	17-05-2003 02:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Whatever happened to the notion that nations would seek objectivity, and not force their form of government and culture over anyone else, particularly those that are unfamiliar or undesiring of it?

There can be no peace between cultures if one demands women to stoned to death for showing their faces.

There can be no peace between government forms if one executes people along with their families for voicing concerns about its policies.

	17-05-2003 02:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam:

Let it go. It isn't going to happen because we seem to have some "wierd" attachment to the continued existance of Seoul and Tokyo.

	17-05-2003 02:44									#59
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Sorry Lord Merciless, I wasn't very clear in the post. The Gulf of Tonkin was seen as a deliberate provocation by Vietnam on the US interest's at the time it happened.

Afterwards, it was understood to be a blatant lie, that the US had deliberately started the war because it thought it could win.

I agree with you, the situation is totally different to the Vietnam era.

It was HOW THE WAR STARTS I was trying to get over.

As for your first 3 point - I disagree totally. You cannot even get non NK radio in that country, let alone TV or newspapers. It's totally isolated, and most of the people there perceive the outside world as hostile.

If you think China is not going to support NK - ah, go study Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia again. That might give you an idea of how the Chinese operate. Even if they don't support with direct military intervention (and I think they would - it's a moot point until it happens) there's a lot of other support they could give.

Even a US occupation of N Korea - all opposing conventional forces beaten in the field - would not prevent succesful guerrila operations for years to come.

They wrote Sun Tzu. If you haven't, I suggest you do.

	17-05-2003 02:55									#60
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Don't get me wrong here, Lord Merciless. I am not condoning or approving in any way, shape or form, the behaviour of the Kim Il Sung regime.

But it seems hypocritical to support one regime that represses women (Saudi Arabia) and demand the extinction of another for the same reason.

It's not a perfect world. But there's a time for war and a time where it is not appropriate or useful. At the present time in North Korea I judge it counter-productive and even playing into the hands of the Chinese.