17-05-2003 03:07									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy As for your first 3 point - I disagree totally. You cannot even get non NK radio in that country, let alone TV or newspapers. It's totally isolated, and most of the people there perceive the outside world as hostile. If you think China is not going to support NK - ah, go study Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia again. That might give you an idea of how the Chinese operate. Even if they don't support with direct military intervention (and I think they would - it's a moot point until it happens) there's a lot of other support they could give. Even a US occupation of N Korea - all opposing conventional forces beaten in the field - would not prevent succesful guerrila operations for years to come. They wrote Sun Tzu. If you haven't, I suggest you do.

You don't understand the Chinese. At least my wife is Chinese. I have been to China many times. I understand their pinyin system. I speak a little Chinese. I study Chinese history extensively. I have spoken with ordinary Chinese, whether from Taiwan or from Mainland. If you think you understand Chinese better than me, you will be disappointed.

The truth is that China's priority is to build up the country economically and to reunify with Taiwan. Having good relationship with SK and US is far more important than NK. Chinese, however, will play the game to extract concessions from us, and if our government plays the game right. NK regime will be destroyed.

As for North Koreans resisting, don't give me laughs. It's true that these people were being taught how evil and murderous Americans and their Southern brothers are, but a simple direct contact between the sides will quickly dispel the lies of the North Korean regime. As far as the loyalty of a starving people goes, a few sacks of grains and some chocolates for children will sway their loyalties completely.

Oh, I forgot to mention that a complete blockade of North Korea requires Chinese assistance.

	17-05-2003 03:22									#62
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless 1) You don't understand the Chinese. At least my wife is Chinese. I have been to China many times. I understand their pinyin system. I speak a little Chinese. I study Chinese history extensively. I have spoken with ordinary Chinese, whether from Taiwan or from Mainland. If you think you understand Chinese better than me, you will be disappointed. 2) The truth is that China's priority is to build up the country economically and to reunify with Taiwan. Having good relationship with SK and US is far more important than NK. Chinese, however, will play the game to extract concessions from us, and if our government plays the game right. NK regime will be destroyed. 3) As for North Koreans resisting, don't give me laughs. It's true that these people were being taught how evil and murderous Americans and their Southern brothers are, but a simple direct contact between the sides will quickly dispel the lies of the North Korean regime. As far as the loyalty of a starving people goes, a few sacks of grains and some chocolates for children will sway their loyalties completely. 4) Oh, I forgot to mention that a complete blockade of North Korea requires Chinese assistance.

1) I refer you to the parenthethised words in my quote "It is a moot point until it happens". I do question if you''re understanding of the Chinese military is the same as mine - but I will concede your knowledge of the Chinese culture and social fabric must be far superior.

2) This is a Chinese leadership dilemma. If they fail to support NK, then a lot of their Communist brotherhood doctrine discredited. It could reduce their power considerably. It would be tempting for them - I agree Taiwan is a major prize for them - but would the Taiwanese want reunification with the mainland? It's a dilemma for the US too.

3) DO NOT CONFUSE them with the Iraqis, under economic blockade for over a decade and with no air force. They would resist. Wouldn't YOU resist if someone invaded your country? "Oh but we're different to that". I disagree - the level of indoctrination is probably about the same. Also, the degree of militarisation is on a different scale.

4) No argument from me here.

	17-05-2003 03:27									#63
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam: 1. NK is isolated. Even the Chinese won't support them this time.

What about UN - another war in few years. @_@

quote: 2. NK regime has no support in population. Its people and its military will abandon the regime as soon as they can see what bright future awaits them.

When they will get bombed they would say huray our regime. And if they would have US occupation they would hate US.

quote: 3. SK is much stronger than NK.

And what? How did you counted it?

quote: 4. The US is much stronger compared to Vietnam era.

Actually weaker and had exercise in midle east. They didn't recall some units from Saudi Arabia for no reason.
Hey you shouldn't mistake economy with reality. Economy numbers should rise they are expected to do so, but real arms are expensive and you'd have much less tham.

	17-05-2003 03:28									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy 2) This is a Chinese leadership dilemma. If they fail to support NK, then a lot of their Communist brotherhood doctrine discredited. It could reduce their power considerably. It would be tempting for them - I agree Taiwan is a major prize for them - but would the Taiwanese want reunification with the mainland? It's a dilemma for the US too.

Yes, I agree that US selling out Taiwan is not a good option. But US pulling out of Korea completely is acceptable to every party involved.

quote: 3) DO NOT CONFUSE them with the Iraqis, under economic blockade for over a decade and with no air force. They would resist. Wouldn't YOU resist if someone invaded your country? "Oh but we're different to that". I disagree - the level of indoctrination is probably about the same. Also, the degree of militarisation is on a different scale.

North Koreans will not be invaded by a foreign power, they will be liberated by their compatriots from the South.

	17-05-2003 03:36									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Yes, I agree that US selling out Taiwan is not a good option. But US pulling out of Korea completely is acceptable to every party involved. North Koreans will not be invaded by a foreign power, they will be liberated by their compatriots from the South.

Your first point is totally unacceptable to the S Koreans. You think they want a common border with China? They'd last a fast five minutes. The Chinese leadership would not hesitate to gain more territory - such a useful, industrialised, productive country to add to their list of acquisitions. I'm not saying the Chinese PEOPLE would want this - but since when did the leadership care what the people wanted?

Your second point; a recipe for another civil war. Could the US and China stay out of it? I think not, maybe not directly - but supplying arms and munitions to another bloody war zone.

	17-05-2003 03:43									#66
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Your first point is totally unacceptable to the S Koreans. You think they want a common border with China? They'd last a fast five minutes. The Chinese leadership would not hesitate to gain more territory - such a useful, industrialised, productive country to add to their list of acquisitions. I'm not saying the Chinese PEOPLE would want this - but since when did the leadership care what the people wanted?

No, China is not the warmongering and expantionist fool you think it is. I suggest you to get more informed in this matter.

	17-05-2003 03:47									#67
	Got spare money?

If SK wants our protection, there will have to be some agreement on terms. We may have to give or they may have to give. but in the end, I doubt they will get to have US protection without some agreement on the nature of the threat.

	17-05-2003 03:47									#68
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Your second point; a recipe for another civil war. Could the US and China stay out of it? I think not, maybe not directly - but supplying arms and munitions to another bloody war zone.

What I meant was a joint military operation against the North. US providing fire support and SK provinding most of the ground force. China stays neutral.

	17-05-2003 03:48									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless No, China is not the warmongering and expantionist fool you think it is. I suggest you to get more informed in this matter.

The people of Tibet and Hong Kong would disagree with you on this one. I would not say "fool". "Extremely clever and patient" would be my line.

	17-05-2003 03:49									#70
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I wouldn't know. I don't speak Korean. But your government's lack of commitment to peace would have any rival reaching for the plutonium producing reactors at full speed ahead. The medias current demonization frenzy of N Korea does not speak well of the possibility of peace in the region. It is very easy to destroy and make enemies. It is very dificult to create and make friends. Just taking the easy path is not going to do anyone any good - and as stated, if you want any help with a war in Korea, you are unlikely to get it. Even S Korea favours the peace and reconcilliation approach. Maybe it's because they've got a lot to lose? You've already set most Muslim nations against you (outside of Kuwait). You want the Chinese up in arms too? The US should learn to quit while its ahead.

Are you saying that the US is primarily in the wrong and NK in the right? If you think they are unfairly demonized, you should read the triplet story. That place is wierd...

	17-05-2003 03:51									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not only Tibet and hong Kong but also Macao, part of Kashmir, border wars with both the Soviets and Vietnamese, they tried to take the Spratley's 4-5 years ago but the Japanese navy burned the Chinese encampment, and I haven't even brought up the issue of Taiwan yet.

	17-05-2003 04:01									#72
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by raghar Actually weaker and had exercise in midle east. They didn't recall some units from Saudi Arabia for no reason. Hey you shouldn't mistake economy with reality. Economy numbers should rise they are expected to do so, but real arms are expensive and you'd have much less tham.

Yes, the forces are smaller. But there is much less of a Soviet threat and less Europe prescence needed.

	17-05-2003 04:15									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy The people of Tibet and Hong Kong would disagree with you on this one. I would not say "fool". "Extremely clever and patient" would be my line.

I know you would bring up the issue about Tibet and Hongkong.

The relationship China has with these places is very different than with Korea. The Chinese, and their culture, put great emphasis on 'Unification'. A government/dynasty that can't keep the country unified has always been considered as failed in Chinese history.

Hong Kong was leased to UK for 99 years in 1898. In 1997, the lease ran out and Hong Kong was legally handed over to China by the UK. The history behind Tibet is a bit more complicated:

In 1722, Tibet was occupied by the last rampaging Mongol horde under Tsering Rabdan. The Dalai Lama asked the Qing empire for assistance under the condition that Tibet would recognize Qing suzerainity, allow stationing of Qing troops, and pay yearly tribute to the imperial court. This relationship lasted until the fall of the Qing empire in 1912. Then under British assistance, Tibet declared its independence which lasted until 1951. Almost every Chinese I know never consider Tibet as a foreign nation.

Basically Chinese Communists are compelled to take Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan, and maybe Outer Mongolia. BTW regarding the Outer Mongolia, it's still part of China on Taiwanese maps.

Korea had a very different relationship with China. For almost 1700 years (except Mongol era), China has never directly ruled over the peninsular. During the last dynasty, Korea stayed pretty much independent except for paying yearly tributes. Chinese never considered Korea as their land. Chinese leaders are not compelled to annex Korea, unlike in the cases you mentioned above, and they are fully aware of the dire consequences if they resort to outright aggression.

	17-05-2003 04:19									#74
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin they tried to take the Spratley's 4-5 years ago but the Japanese navy burned the Chinese encampment,

There were no Japanese involvement in Spratley Islands. The Japanese Navy did burn down an Taiwanese encampment, however.

	17-05-2003 04:21									#75
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by GP 1) Are you saying that the US is primarily in the wrong and NK in the right? 2) If you think they are unfairly demonized, you should read the triplet story. That place is wierd...

1) I am saying that it is frankly hypocrtical of the US to make a fuss over a Communist country acquiring nuclear weapons while giving the nod to places like Israel and South Africa.

I am in favour of nuclear proliferation among nations, quite simply, because it REDUCES the chance of warfare. Not eliminates.. and I'm completely opposed to nukes in the hands of ORGANISATIONS with moral compunction about using them (like Al Qaeda).

2) There are many nations, many places, with practices as abhorrent or more abhorrent than N Korea. Why this sudden media focus... unless there's a "softening up" of the American psyche going on.

Some examples; Saudi Arabia, SIerra Leone, Brazil, Columbia, Sudan, China, Zimbabwe... why isn't the media having much to report from those countries? Is it because the US has no plans to invade them at the moment?

	17-05-2003 04:23									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm, I remember reading the Chinese set up a observation post and a small tent city on the Spratley's and the Japanese Navy kicked them off since Japan also claims the Islands. As I recall the PRC, the ROC, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam and Brunei all claim the Spratleys though no one cared about them until they thought there might be oil there.

	17-05-2003 04:26									#77
	Remove this text

Terrorists are everwhere. ~_^ It would divide forces more effectively than a largely harmless threat.
I talked about bang per well ... money. US had jus pack of B-2 old and less effective planes, few problems with developing new (do you remmember JSF cause? Goverment was forced to pay, but to different company. Talk about destruction of concurrency.)
Bigger problem with US is they will occupate and if successfull then what? Rebelion in few years, or big problems with food and people saing nice Kim.

	17-05-2003 04:27									#78
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Some examples; Saudi Arabia, SIerra Leone, Brazil, Columbia, Sudan, China, Zimbabwe... why isn't the media having much to report from those countries? Is it because the US has no plans to invade them at the moment?

What the hell are you talking about? Did you do any research before making that statement?

This statement alone undermines your entire credibility.

	17-05-2003 04:28									#79
	Support Apolyton

Naw, you just turn the master over to South Korea when the war is over. After all they'll want to be reunified with their poor oppressed brothers from the north.

	17-05-2003 04:29									#80
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Don't get me wrong here, Lord Merciless. I am not condoning or approving in any way, shape or form, the behaviour of the Kim Il Sung regime.

So why ask people to articulate how screwed that regime is?

	17-05-2003 04:29									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hmmm, I remember reading the Chinese set up a observation post and a small tent city on the Spratley's and the Japanese Navy kicked them off since Japan also claims the Islands. As I recall the PRC, the ROC, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam and Brunei all claim the Spratleys though no one cared about them until they thought there might be oil there.

It was the Philippine Navy who burnt down that encampment.

This incident also illustrates how weak China really is on the sea.

	17-05-2003 04:30									#82
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless ... 1) Hong Kong was leased to UK for 99 years in 1898. In 1997, the lease ran out and Hong Kong was legally handed over to China by the UK. The history behind Tibet is a bit more complicated: 2) .. Almost every Chinese I know never consider Tibet as a foreign nation. 3) Basically Chinese Communists are compelled to take Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan, and maybe Outer Mongolia. BTW regarding the Outer Mongolia, it's still part of China on Taiwanese maps. Korea had a very different relationship with China. For almost 1700 years (except Mongol era), China has never directly ruled over the peninsular. During the last dynasty, Korea stayed pretty much independent except for paying yearly tributes. Chinese never considered Korea as their land. Chinese leaders are not compelled to annex Korea, unlike in the cases you mentioned above, and they are fully aware of the dire consequences if they resort to outright aggression.

1) Hong Kong island was GIVEN to the UK for eternity. When Mrs T (now there's a despicable...nevermind) went over in the mid 80s to renegotiate, she was given a simple ultimatum.

"Either get out... or we'll invade". You can add TOTALLY RUTHLESS to that list of honourifics.

The best she could do (there's no way we are in a rush to take on China!) was to quickly set up a few democratic insitutions as a "poison chalice" to hand back.

2) OF COURSE all the Chinese think of Tibet as part of China - it's been that way for 50 years! What do the TIBETANS think????

3) So China's not keen to acquire Korea, huh? Why'd they invade it back in the 50s when the UN forces where ramming up the peninsular? Maybe they're troops couldn't read maps? Or just to "prop up" the N K forces? If that's the case, why didn't they try for a ceasefire for another 2 years?

This is kind of irrelevent - do the S Koreans trust the Chinese? OF COURSE NOT, for the above reason.

	17-05-2003 04:34									#83
	Support Apolyton

Brazil!? A comparison to NK? Are you high? REad some traveler's accounts of the two nations.

	17-05-2003 04:37									#84
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless What the hell are you talking about? Did you do any research before making that statement? This statement alone undermines your entire credibility.

Saudi Arabia - public executions, corrruption, suppression of free thought, suppression of peaceful anti US demonstrations. Then you wonder why people blow themselves and others up to make a point.

Sierra Leone - widespread corruption, dismemberment of opposition forces, total lack of order outside the city.

Brazil - widespread corruption, systematic execution of homeless children, drug lords having the real power.

Columbia - torture, paramilitary activities, corruption, kidnapping. Murder capital of the world.

Sudan - forced mutiliation of females ("pharonic circumcision"), child soldiers, hunger and aid used as weapons of war.

Zimbabwe - widespread torture and intimidation of opposition party in a so called 2 party state. Also sends forces to the Congo for a little extra cash.

How much of that do you read in your papers and watch on your TV? Not a lot, I suspect.

	17-05-2003 04:37									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think Indonesia also wants the Spratleys. Maybe we should make a claim. Silly Euros always forget that the PAC is more our focus than the LANT.

	17-05-2003 04:44									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy 1) Hong Kong island was GIVEN to the UK for eternity. When Mrs T (now there's a despicable...nevermind) went over in the mid 80s to renegotiate, she was given a simple ultimatum. "Either get out... or we'll invade". You can add TOTALLY RUTHLESS to that list of honourifics. The best she could do (there's no way we are in a rush to take on China!) was to quickly set up a few democratic insitutions as a "poison chalice" to hand back.

I see you are completely ignorant in this matter. Hong Kong was not given to UK, but was occupied by UK. The British Empire wanted to shove opium up China's ass, when China resisted, the Brits simply attacked and took Hong Kong first. Then 1898, the Brits acquired more territories around Hong Kong and leased those for 99 years. Talking about shameful history here.

quote: 2) OF COURSE all the Chinese think of Tibet as part of China - it's been that way for 50 years! What do the TIBETANS think????

Tibetans get screwed. But that's not the point. The point is that Communists are compelled to take Tibet, while they have no compelling reasons to take Korea.

quote: 3) So China's not keen to acquire Korea, huh? Why'd they invade it back in the 50s when the UN forces where ramming up the peninsular? Maybe they're troops couldn't read maps? Or just to "prop up" the N K forces? If that's the case, why didn't they try for a ceasefire for another 2 years?

Because North Koreans asked them for a bailout, just like the South Koreans asked the Americans for a bailout 6 months earlier.

quote: This is kind of irrelevent - do the S Koreans trust the Chinese? OF COURSE NOT, for the above reason.

They don't, but on the otherhand, they don't want us to stay either. Being pawns of big powers is never pleasant.

	17-05-2003 04:50									#87
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless 1) I see you are completely ignorant in this matter. Hong Kong was not given to UK, but was occupied by UK. The British Empire wanted to shove opium up China's ass, when China resisted, the Brits simply attacked and took Hong Kong first. Then 1898, the Brits acquired more territories around Hong Kong and leased those for 99 years. Talking about shameful history here. 2) Tibetans get screwed. But that's not the point. The point is that Communists are compelled to take Tibet, while they have no compelling reasons to take Korea. 3) Because North Koreans asked them for a bailout, just like the South Koreans asked the Americans for a bailout 6 months earlier. 4) They don't, but on the otherhand, they don't want us to stay either. Being pawns of big powers is never pleasant.

1) NO - that treaty war forcibly extracted from the emperor but it was quite clear as to Hong Kong island's status. "Eternity" was the word used.
As for the motivation of the British, you are quite correct.

2) I'd say a war of occupation was the whole point we're talking about here. They've done it before... why not do it again? There compelling reason to take Korea is to secure their own "security". Like I said it's a moot point - maybe YOU trust them, do the S Koreans?

3) And so they did come down and kick some ass. Doesn't look good on their record, does it?

4) Ach, tell me about it... The only thing more dangerous than being America's ally is being America's enemy.

	17-05-2003 04:52									#88
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Saudi Arabia - public executions, corrruption, suppression of free thought, suppression of peaceful anti US demonstrations. Then you wonder why people blow themselves and others up to make a point.

Don't you realize that by taking Iraq, we have started putting pressure on Saudis?

quote: Sierra Leone - widespread corruption, dismemberment of opposition forces, total lack of order outside the city. Brazil - widespread corruption, systematic execution of homeless children, drug lords having the real power. Columbia - torture, paramilitary activities, corruption, kidnapping. Murder capital of the world. Sudan - forced mutiliation of females ("pharonic circumcision"), child soldiers, hunger and aid used as weapons of war. Zimbabwe - widespread torture and intimidation of opposition party in a so called 2 party state. Also sends forces to the Congo for a little extra cash.

None of these countries's government ever come close to the brutality and depravity of the North Korean regime. The difference is that these countries are actually open enough so you can see what bad things are going on there. I highly recommend you to get your sources other than your every day mass media.

In addition, none of the above countries are developing nukes and threatening to sell them to terrorists.

	17-05-2003 05:05									#89
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless 1) Don't you realize that by taking Iraq, we have started putting pressure on Saudis? ... 2) In addition, none of the above countries are developing nukes and threatening to sell them to terrorists.

1) The only reason I supported coalition action is reported on the "What your politics" thread. No point repeating them here.

2) N Korea has made no such threat. N Korea is not so stupid.

3) Checked out that treaty on Google yet? (smug).

	17-05-2003 05:12									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy 2) I'd say a war of occupation was the whole point we're talking about here. They've done it before... why not do it again? There compelling reason to take Korea is to secure their own "security". Like I said it's a moot point - maybe YOU trust them, do the S Koreans?

You are basically making the assertion that if the US leaves an unified Korea, Chinese would attack and occupy the whole country. Then you invoke the Tibetan case to support your argument. Do you realize things have changed a lot in 50 years?

quote: 3) And so they did come down and kick some ass. Doesn't look d on their record, does it?

Why? They fought the US to a standstill with vastly inferior weapons in conventional warfare. Even the vaunted NVA didn't achieve that. How many times were the US stopped cold in a conventional war?

quote: 4) Ach, tell me about it... The only thing more dangerous than being America's ally is being America's enemy.

It's even more dangeous to be China or Russia's allies.