19-05-2003 19:54									#31
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I don't think this was answered...

quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Good job I just have a question: I notice that the "ugly green line" of proposed jungle clearing snakes back and forth across a river. Would it not make more sense, from a defensive point of view, to have a complete path on one side of the river or the other, so that troops can travel without the river penalty? Of course, I assume that we are going to build roads on the cleared jungle sites, but I think this is a fair assumption?

	19-05-2003 21:46									#32
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Panzer32, I remember thinking that you brought up a very good point (concerning the ugly green line), then took some time to think about it. Unfortunately, I forgot about it entirely afterwards!

Clearly the swath that I'm proposing would not be ideal for defensive purposes. I would like to hear some input on this: can we clear a path through the Jungle that is a good compromise between defense (i.e. connectivity by Roads that do not cross a River) and economy (i.e. connectivity by Roads and Worker efficiency)?

Thoughts, anyone (you'll need to refer back the screenshot)?


Dominae

	20-05-2003 00:31									#33
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Here is what I would consider a good compromise between the optimal clearing path and good defence:



I suggest replacing the green swath with my red one.

Reasons arguing for the red:

1. It does not cross the river; it stays on one side of it - allowing more moves per turn.
2. It uses the same amount of tiles as the green swath, meaning it would the same time to complete.
3. It gives more workable tiles to permanent cities such as Iron city and location 1.
4. Connects the dye with a much more defendable/direct connection.

Drawbacks:
1. Less workable tiles for city 2 - but impact lessened because city 2 will probably only be a worker pump.
2. One less tile cleared that is bordered by the river. This means one less trade, but I believe it is worth it to have a much more defensible southern corridor.


Please comment

	20-05-2003 00:32									#34
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Oh, I forgot the most important reason - I like the colour better

	20-05-2003 00:50									#35
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Panzer32, your proposal looks good because it involves clearing 7 Jungle tiles, while mine only plans for 4 (along the swath)! Remember that just connecting the cities is important for economic reasons, namely for Luxuries and reduced Corruption. The idea behind my swath is a quick efficient way of clearing out the Jungle initially. I'm not convinced the need for a Road defense is so high that it should impinge (much) on economic efficiency in this case.


Dominae

	20-05-2003 03:33									#36
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Dominae: if you look at your original plan, you have your swath plus 3 additional dots. I have replaced these dots with red ones, as well as incorporating one into the swath. You had 8 tiles with the green on them; I have 8 tiles with red on them.

	20-05-2003 04:27									#37
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Ah, in total I count your 9 to my 7.

Another reason why I like my plan better is that Bananatopia accesses more of the cleared tiles, namely the one S-SW of the 'B'.

And yet another reason is that more tiles are "shared" by more cities in my plan, since the green line goes through the diamond outlined by B, I, 1 and 2. This means greater flexibility in Laborer (WF) assignment.

Maybe E_T should chime in?


Dominae

	20-05-2003 04:46									#38
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What about cutting many turns out of the initial phase by going Bananatopia 2 instead of 3 and 2 3?

Truely, defence is a prime concern at this point. Being a single turn from the east side of the river to city 1 could prove crucial at some point, as well as being a slightly shorter path for corruption. The way I see it, these are not the only jungle tiles to clear, these are the priority tiles, and we may well set additional workers to jungle around IronCity/Banatopia before this is complete.

btw, saving one tile in the East could lead to adding tile 8 for city 4, thus giving us a completed defensive ring road, if you want to keep the number of tiles the same.

	20-05-2003 05:01									#39
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If we assign 2 workers/city to jungle, and we work in pairs, and we produce 2 workers in 8 turns from Bananatopia, we have the first 2 pairs start tunneling towards city 1. The third pair begins the irrigation project. The fourth pair begins tunneling towards cities 3 and 4. That is 32 turns of Banatopia production (less than that because the first 1 or 2 workers can start now, but that is somewhat off-set by Banantopia not being finished the granery yet).

That might have additional pairs for Banatopia/IronCity available ~30 turns hense.

btw, IronCity will most likely grow very slowly (if using the iron) and/or Banatopia does not need many tiles to maintain 4 turn worker output (only slighty more when we get it down to 3 turn).

	20-05-2003 05:07									#40
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For the first bunch of Jungle tiles, we'll need to double or triple-up or Workers. After that, for efficiency's sake, we should use only one Worker per Jungle tile. Cities in the Jungle may therefore need to build a Worker in order to keep their pop down before the Jungle really start collapsing.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 20-05-2003 at 05:13

	20-05-2003 19:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Here is what I would consider a good compromise between the optimal clearing path and good defence: I suggest replacing the green swath with my red one. Reasons arguing for the red: 1. It does not cross the river; it stays on one side of it - allowing more moves per turn. 2. It uses the same amount of tiles as the green swath, meaning it would the same time to complete. 3. It gives more workable tiles to permanent cities such as Iron city and location 1. 4. Connects the dye with a much more defendable/direct connection. Drawbacks: 1. Less workable tiles for city 2 - but impact lessened because city 2 will probably only be a worker pump. 2. One less tile cleared that is bordered by the river. This means one less trade, but I believe it is worth it to have a much more defensible southern corridor. Please comment

hi ,

, intresting
lets build that road so we can expand faster

work in pairs

know a Q , could we see to it that iron city grows a bit faster so it shall more poulation and therefore produce way more shields , ....

we should settle there where they are planning cities , hey , come-on those purple dots are great locations

master zen , what s wrong with builders , they more we build the more modern our army becomes , .....

just sit back till we unleash ya

have a nice day

i need weels for them drive by's , ....

	20-05-2003 23:36									#42
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I think optimizing the jungle-clearing and road-building for the movement of units (while still allowing for productive tiles to be cleared) is the best option. The clearing of the jungle is a long-term process, and we only have one chance to clear it in a way that benefits us most. If a war comes any time in the near future, then we will need that road to carry reinforcements. That is important.

In a thread in the strat forum talking about building of railroads, most people said that they built railroads to allow for maximum defense through movement of units, before economic concerns. An extra turn or two or three in moving units could be vital.

	20-05-2003 23:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The clearing of the jungle is a long-term process, and we only have one chance to clear it in a way that benefits us most.

A truism, no? We're trying to figure out the way that does benefit us most.

quote: If a war comes any time in the near future, then we will need that road to carry reinforcements. That is important.

The best road to build if military is all we care about would not be close to Ironville, but on the other side of the River toward Mingapulco and our other military cities. Even with a better military road system on the East side of the river, we will only have the advantage of connecting Ironville and City1 (on my map). Is that a big enough military advantage to offset for the fact that we could be clearing the Jungle far more efficiently from an economic perspective?

quote: In a thread in the strat forum talking about building of railroads, most people said that they built railroads to allow for maximum defense through movement of units, before economic concerns. An extra turn or two or three in moving units could be vital.

Conventional wisdom is conventional. But there is also a huge difference between a Road and a Railroad network. Railroads allow instantaneous travel, which is a far better ability when most cities can produce military units; with our current empire, only a couple of cities are producing military units, so only they are really critical in terms of Roads. Defense-wise, in the Industrial age the opponent can "reach" any border city within one turn, so Railroads are again important militarily; here, we'll see the CDG attack from a long way off. And finally, in the Industrial age, most players' economies are sufficient for the task at hand, namely going on the offensive, so focusing on Railroads just makes the battles go faster. In our game, we desperately need more economic backup, so building Roads for economy seems like a better idea. If, by some fluke, you were behind the AIs in the Industrial age (in SP), I think you would focus more on getting your cities productive than linking them all up with Railroads.

Notice that I'm not saying a military network is not a good idea. Not at all. It's just that I think the first few Jungle tiles should be cleared with economic concerns in mind (like giving each city a sufficient number of non-Jungle tiles to work on).


Dominae

	21-05-2003 00:04									#44
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As long as a road network is in place for reinforcements in 40 turns, I have no problems. Every time that road crosses a river, it's minus 1 turn. Many in the PTW DG and those who have played MP know what a difference 1 turn can make.

	21-05-2003 00:08									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Trip As long as a road network is in place for reinforcements in 40 turns, I have no problems. Every time that road crosses a river, it's minus 1 turn.

True. We need to work on alternative plan that takes economic and military concerns into consideration. Panzer32's is pretty good, but I think we can do better.

E_T?


Dominae

	21-05-2003 00:08									#46
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:oints at the river and the plains::

These two need to get together; the sooner the better. It'll turn Horse City into a real production giant much more quickly.

I'd like to see the first few jungle clears with that goal in mind. That'll help our production which in turn helps our military. After that, let's move to the thought of road networks.

	21-05-2003 00:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon These two need to get together; the sooner the better. It'll turn Horse City into a real production giant much more quickly. I'd like to see the first few jungle clears with that goal in mind. That'll help our production which in turn helps our military.

This is already in the works. City2 (in my proposal) is so-placed because it brings up fresh water to Horsetown that much quicker.


Dominae

	21-05-2003 02:16									#48
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My new and improved jungle clearing plan



This proposal is superior economically without compromising our military mobility.

It provides the same number of cleared river tiles as Dominae's proposal. It also does not cross a river, so that allows military mobility. The only possible drawback is that it gives two less cleared tiles available to Bananatopia - but this is pretty much nulled by the fact that Iron City would probably be working these tiles anyway.

	21-05-2003 02:32									#49
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Military move times (only comparing selected ones that are different between the plans):

Dominae's plan:
B->4: 4 turns
B->1: 3 turns
I->4: 3 turns
4->B: 3 turns

Panzer32's improved plan:
B->4: 3 turns (-1)
B->1: 2 turns (-1)
I->4: 2 turns (-1)
4->B: 2 turns (-1)

Panzer32's original plan:
B->4: 4 turns (0)
B->1: 3 turns (0)
I->4: 2 turns (-1)
4->B: 3 turns (0)

My improved plan reduces military travel time by a turn for most important strategic travel. I think it is a big improvement over my original plan. Thanks to NYE for suggesting starting south of Bananatopia.

	21-05-2003 03:54									#50
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hi ,

allas , we should go asap with the best plan

btw , are we planning a city near the land tongue near the dye with the whale

have a nice day

	21-05-2003 10:08									#51
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Panzer32, could you possibly come up with an alternate plan that gives more cleared tiles to Bananatopia? As our best city (apart from Apolyton) and with a Granary, Bananatopia will need all the tiles it can access. My original plan tried to give Bananatopia as many tiles as possible (while still connecting all the cities).

Nice effort on the second proposal, by the way. Nice to see another economist among us!


Dominae

	21-05-2003 11:15									#52
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What is Bananatopia going to do? Pump workers? Then it can do so in no less than 4 turns. Only need 2 tiles to maintain 4 turn workers.

	21-05-2003 18:20									#53
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I might try another plan; unless Bananatopia really doesn't need all of the cleared tiles (ie worker pump).

	22-05-2003 01:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What is Bananatopia going to do? Pump workers? Then it can do so in no less than 4 turns. Only need 2 tiles to maintain 4 turn workers.

hi ,

what about pumping out settlers , .....

have a nice day

	22-05-2003 04:49									#55
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OK. Third plan:



This plan does not connect Iron city to the cleared area, instead Iron city is connected with the road we are currently building so that we connect the Iron.

With this plan, it requires one less tile to clear, which means one cleared tile to be placed wherever we like it, depending on which city needs it.

This plan also calls for a road on top of the mountain 9 of city 4. This for military reasons only, and allows transport of only 2 turns between Bananatopia and city 4. It also allows more direct transportation between the Mingapulco and City 4.

This plan allows for quicker transportation between cities than Dominae's plan, but not for Iron city. However, we have an extra tile we can clear, and we can do that somewhere near Iron city to allow for quicker transportation.

The Greatest asset in this plan is the flexibility of the extra tile we can clear.

Dominae's plan:
B->4: 4 turns
B->1: 3 turns
I->4: 3 turns
4->B: 3 turns

Panzer32's Third plan:
B->4: 2 turns (-2)
B->1: 2 turns (-1)
I->4: 3 turns (0)
4->B: 2 turns (-1)

Panzer32's improved plan:
B->4: 3 turns (-1)
B->1: 2 turns (-1)
I->4: 2 turns (-1)
4->B: 2 turns (-1)

Panzer32's original plan:
B->4: 4 turns (0)
B->1: 3 turns (0)
I->4: 2 turns (-1)
4->B: 3 turns (0)

	22-05-2003 10:28									#56
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I like this final plan. Among other things, it will allow easy access to the tiles that need clearing for our newly-built Workers, since these tiles are all on the West side of the river.

My only concern is hooking up City4...are you suggesting we Road the Mountain? City4 may have to be a priority, depending on how our border treaty really works. If CDG and us are allowed to settle adjacent to the border, we might run into some conflict, since cities cannot be founded adjacent to one another. Thus prioritizing City4 may beat them to the punch, and leave us our permanent city-site, since City2 is only temporary.

Nice job, Panzer32!


Dominae

	22-05-2003 12:39									#57
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Why not move the road from the mountain to the tile NW of it? This also allows for transports from B to 4 (through 2) in 2 turns.

You can choose to clear it or not.

	22-05-2003 17:56									#58
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I am suggesting that we road the mountain; if we decide to use the extra clear tile for NW of the mountain, then that is good too. This is the beauty of this last plan - it gives flexibility. Maybe at this point, we're unsure if Bananatopia will need more than 2 cleared tiles, or we don't know exactly when war will come. Flexibility is needed.

Another one of the selling points in this plan is the short transport time from Bananatopia to city4, which may turn out to be very strategically important.

	22-05-2003 18:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 I am suggesting that we road the mountain; if we decide to use the extra clear tile for NW of the mountain, then that is good too. This is the beauty of this last plan - it gives flexibility. Maybe at this point, we're unsure if Bananatopia will need more than 2 cleared tiles, or we don't know exactly when war will come. Flexibility is needed. Another one of the selling points in this plan is the short transport time from Bananatopia to city4, which may turn out to be very strategically important.

hi ,

agreed , it would not only give us a two spaces view , it will also be a great natural bunker

the road tile bfm suggest should be done right after that

have a nice day

	22-05-2003 19:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Why not move the road from the mountain to the tile NW of it? This also allows for transports from B to 4 (through 2) in 2 turns. You can choose to clear it or not.

It is almost always preferable to Clear before Road in Jungle and Forest. Doing the opposite essentially puts a Worker on idle for three turns.


Dominae