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And about why Sauron was beaten the first time and his comparitive strength.
I believe it is implied that the humans and elves of those time were much stronger.
I mean the blood of Numenor still flowed, and human and elves traded a lot, and there were maybe more elves.
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Lord Merciless
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It's quite amazing how much impact that book has on later generations. The entire Dungeon and Dragon franchise was based on Tolkien, and so many authors have ripped off his ideas.
I still have this question though:
Why were Elves and Humans able to defeat Sauron the first time when he had the ring, but did have so much trouble the second time when he didn't have it?
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altF18
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Earth
Mar 2003
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I still have this question though:
Why were Elves and Humans able to defeat Sauron the first time when he had the ring, but did have so much trouble the second time when he didn't have it? |
The Last Alliance of Elves and Men...
The strength of Elves and Men were united, and therefore the armies of Sauron were crushed swiftly and the Barad-dur itself was besieged. Gil-galad and Elendil themselves fought Sauron, and they slew his body. After that, the elves left oversea, since their lands were ravaged and they forsook Middle-Earth due to Sauron's evils. And the strength of Men dwindled.
So when Sauron rose again there were little elves and the glory of the Dunedain was less, as Arnor was no more and Gondor had dwindled due to multiple wars and mingling. Sauron had armies lining up against Gondor, and no hlep could come from the North. So thus the events of LOTR.
but then again, the host of Mordor was swiftly crushed on the Pellenor, and the Black Gate itself was again assailed though without hope and by a sufficently smaller force.
It was impossible to gather an army to invade Mordor again, and so they were weaker than before.
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Lefty Scaevola
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San Antonio TX USA
Oct 2000
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Why were Elves and Humans able to defeat Sauron the first time when he had the ring, but did have so much trouble the second time when he didn't have it? |
In the first war, Sauron had only had a limited amount of time using the rings to establish mominion over the rest of middlee earth and did not have as many armies available. Indeed he had already already attack the evlish kingdoms prematurely and been crushed by the what remained of the and the Numenorians. And had to start over from near scratch. When begging to revover from that he was in conflict with the Numenorians, and when thaey laned with a Humogngous army, He decided it would be more profitable to corupt and co-opt them from within than fight them militarily, and he feign surrender and subservience to the Numenor's King, He corrupted most of Numenor and tricked the king and much of his army to destruction, sending them to attack Valinor, (hoping to pick up the kIngdom and its rescources) but the rection of the Valar destroyed numnor and Suarons body, another major setback for his power, from which he was not quite recovered, either in terms or army building or his in person combat power, when he attacked the Numenoreans exile Kingdoms, starting the war of the last alliance. In the third age, culminating in the war of the ring, he spent most of the OVER THREE MILLENIA consolidating imperial power in the rest of Middle Earth (of which the entire LoTR map is only about 1/6) before the War of the Ring.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba
The Istari and the Balrogs are both Maiar, and it is in the Silmarillion where it explains it in detail:
"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his [Morgoth] splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness... Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." pg 31
"Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. ... In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness." pgs. 30-1
And from the Index of Names in the back:
Olorin A Maia, one of the Istari (Wizards); see Mithrandir, Gandalf
You don't get to live 300 lives of men smoking Hobbit Hash.  |
This is complicated by the fact that the books are occasionally coy about the origins of the Istari. Presumably, we are meant to draw the inference that the Istari are Maiar, but they are supposed to be the secret agents of the Valar so they are shrouded in mystery.
Personally, I think Radagast gets a bad rap, and I'd love to know what really happened to the blue wizards.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Possibly, though they wouldn't have been much left afterwards. The ones taken by dragons were melted... |
Peculiar to think if Bilbo Baggins had been toasted by Smaug - and it was a close call - LOTR might not have happened.
I'm glad it did, not just for the books but also for the movie.
I could be wrong on this but I'm sure Sauron is named as a Maier and Mithrandir (aka Gandalf) is too in the Silmarillion.
It's been like 20 years since I read it so I'm probably wrong.
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Cruddy
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Agathon, I thought the point was debated in the Council at Rivendell? As in "O for a handy dragon. Sadly we've killed them all."
I thought Tolkien was making a point here about species extinction - it looks like I read too much into that!
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Cruddy
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Ah, I did read too much into it. Thanks Agathon.
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Frogman
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
They were only barely able to defeat him last time and that was only through an amazing stroke of luck; the severing of his hand. At least that was the impression that I got from the movie because I haven't read the Silmarillion yet. |
The interesting thing about the silmarillian is that over time the forces in Middle Earth become weaker not stronger. In the beginning it was the "gods" themselves who battled. Each period becomes progressively weaker, quite unlike what we think of in our world.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
Tolkien implemented the medieval notion of regress in his books. People in the Third Age were not as tough and intelligent as the ones in the Second. Civilization had, in many ways, collapsed. |
Yeah. Arnor disappeared, Rohan and Gondor were depopulated, Dwarven strongholds were taken over by Orcs and Goblins, and Elves were leaving the place all together.
I guess Tolkien wasn't happy with the way OUR world is moving to.
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Lefty Scaevola
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San Antonio TX USA
Oct 2000
time: 23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
, and I'd love to know what really happened to the blue wizards. |
One of tolkien last notes, available in vol XI of HoME, and aluded to above by me, describes their missions. They were to go into the east of Middle Earth and try to find what was left Suaron and prevent him reforming. Failing that, as obviously they did, they were to hidner his control over the peoples their, stir up revolts, and prevent maasive forces from there from overwhelming the west, which they have somewhat more success at. Despite the preopderance of territory in the East and south, Sauron was not able to field overwhelming forces from there againt the Northwest, until the end of the third age and the War of the Ring.
The names of the Blue Wizards in valinor (from Unfinished Tales) befor becoming Istari are Alatar and Pallando. In Middle Earth their names are Morinehtar and Rómestamo, meaning "darkness-slayer" and "east-helper".
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 18-05-2003 at 10:47
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17-05-2003 11:20
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