17-05-2003 05:20									#1
	What race/specie is Sauron? Get a bigger avatar today!

This question about Lord of the Rings has always bugged me. Has Tolkien ever explained that? How were the Elves and Men able to defeat him the first time when he had the ring, but had so much trouble the second time when he didn't have it?


Can LOTR experts answer those questions?

	17-05-2003 05:26									#2
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Sauron is a spirit, I'm pretty sure. I don't understand how Isildur could've killed him when Sauron had the ring, though. When Sauron has the ring he has uncomprehendable powers so I don't understand how it could've happened.

	17-05-2003 05:30									#3
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Sauron is one of the Maiar, I believe. He was a servant of Morgoth, and then became the big Evil Cheese when Morgoth was defeated.

	17-05-2003 05:30									#4
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Shhhh, you weren't supposed to think of that.

	17-05-2003 05:37									#5
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Does anyone think that Sauron represents Adolf Hitler? (The first book was written in 1937)

	17-05-2003 05:46									#6
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Yes, I have heard that Tolkiens books had lots of allegory in them dealing with the situation of the world during his time.

	17-05-2003 05:48									#7
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I think the major difference is that Hitler's enemies were comparatively much much stronger than Sauron's foes.

In reality, the evil elites were being grinded down by the good hordes.

	17-05-2003 05:52									#8
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Boris is correct, Sauron was one of the Maia that followed Morgoth after his rebellion. After Morgoths' defeat he stewed around a bit, and then went to Numenor (sp), were he helped bring them down, but when Numenor was destroyed, hje lost his ability to disguise himself in a pleasing light, and thus then had to work form the shadows (all I know from the Silmarillion)

	17-05-2003 05:57									#9
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What is a Maia, a humanoid race, a demon, a spirit, or something completely different?

	17-05-2003 06:01									#10
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They are a second rung of "angels", one step down from the Valar, who are like archangels, or perhaps like Greek Gods, all still one step down from the "creator" of the universe.

	17-05-2003 06:07									#11
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Ainur

	17-05-2003 06:23									#12
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Yes, the answer is a Maiar - same as Gandalf and Saruman and the Balrog.

	17-05-2003 06:25									#13
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Think Morgath = Satan. Angel who abandons God.

Sauron was created by and served Morgath. (Orcs, btw, are elves corrupted by him)

	17-05-2003 06:28									#14
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Sauron was not created by morgoth, he was created by the 'creator" and followed Morgoth (like the angels who followed Satan down..satan did not create any of them)

I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

	17-05-2003 06:35									#15
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Gandalf and Saruman were Istari wizards, sent as messengers to ward of Sauron.

And I believe Sauron was made in the beginning and not by anyone else.

	17-05-2003 06:57									#16
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quote: I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

I'm about 100% certain on this...here's verification for the fact that Gandalf is a Maiar (based on the first page of a Yahoo search). When I have more time, I'll research more, and also look for Balrogs, but rest assured, they are Maiar.

http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/gandalf.html

	17-05-2003 06:59									#17
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Here's one for the Balrogs:

http://fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/maiar.html

Specifically:

"But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and labored....And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-Earth in later days. --The Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves""

This is written in the first paragraph, under the Maiar section.

	17-05-2003 07:02									#18
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Yes, I have heard that Tolkiens books had lots of allegory in them dealing with the situation of the world during his time.

Try reading the introduction to Lord of the Rings. There's no allegory in LotR.

I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

You are mistaken. All five of the Istari are Maiar are so are the Balrogs. OTOH, the Dragons aren't Maia.

	17-05-2003 07:07									#19
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The Silmarillion never defines the Istari as Maia, so I won't believe a movie bio.

Balrog? They were demons of fire, spirits, but also never defined as maiar... Though it is never really defined where the line between the gods and their servants is.

	17-05-2003 07:10									#20
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Well, owning the Sillmarillion, I can say that that is not on the first paragraph of the maiar section. But you are correct, balrogsd are mentioned in the Maiar section (later on).

	17-05-2003 07:10									#21
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Well, they obviously aren't Valar, and they obviously aren't mortals, and they obviously aren't elves.

Where does that leave us?

	17-05-2003 07:18									#22
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Oh man, Tolkien stated so many occasion that he absolutely hated allegory. If you want Sauron to represent Hitler you can, but Tolkien did not mean it that way. He was just trying to give Britain a mythology of it own.

	17-05-2003 08:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Does anyone think that Sauron represents Adolf Hitler? (The first book was written in 1937)

In the preface of his trilogy Tolkien strongly disclaims the idea that his work was an allegory for any real persons or events, with one exception - many of the features of evil in middle earth were drawn from a particular episode of his youth. As a young child their was a pristine woodland and pond where he liked to play. Family tragedy took him away from his early childhood home, then when he returned he discovered to his horror that his beloved sylvan playland had been ruined by an industrial mill built during his absence. One of the mills built in the Shire while Frodo was away bears the name of that hated mill, and in a more abstract way the features of the enemy in his book are those of industrial progress striving against a simpler agrarian way of life.

	17-05-2003 08:33									#24
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Tha quote comes from Chapter 3, "The coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor". In that quote it is not very clear that balrogs are maiar and not some other beings, though their inclusion in the Maiar section does point that way.

	17-05-2003 08:38									#25
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I still think that it is rather vague on both the Istari and Balrog stance... Though, IMO they are servant of the Maiar, not them themselves, maybe partisans of them. Yet, I hold Maiar as meaning gods, if so then they (Balrogs and Istari) are angels.

	17-05-2003 08:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Sauron was not created by morgoth, he was created by the 'creator" and followed Morgoth I never heard of Gandalf being a Maia, and the Balrog certainly is not.

Part of Morgoth's fall came for his desire and inability to create sentient beings. The Valar and the Maiar were spirits created by the one god.
Gandalf and the other five wizards were Maiar sent to middle earth by the Valar to contest it (under some limitation enfored by some manner in which in the physical form were made) against Sauron. Gandalf's name as a Maia in Valinor was Orloin. In JRRTs ruminations upon him he first set him among the Maiar of Lorien, then later of the Mair of Manwe. The is a couple draft the recruiting of the Istari 'Unfinished tales'. Sauruman, Like Sauron was from the Maiar of Aule (the smith Valar). There are later framentary note about the Istari in the appropriate volumes of 'The History of Middle Earth' including one expounding upon the 2 blue wizards who were mostly passed over the the scene in 'Unfinished tales". That also containes a heart rending note from JRRT about his failing memory and his inabilty to find his earlier writings on the Istari or even to remeber the names he had given the blue wizards.
The Balrog (Sindarin for "demon fo might")(Quenya word is valaraurko) is a Maia, (although Morgoth did recruit some spirits from outside Ea, they must have been Aniur themselves, but ones who had not participated in the forming of Ea) among those who followed Morgoth is his first revolt. 7 of them originaly, 2-4 were killed in the attack on Gondolin, and the rest, save one, during the War of Wrath when the Valar did for Morgoth.

JRRT catagorically denied LoTR being an alegory for WW2 or any other real history.

	17-05-2003 10:45									#27
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Wow, I gave the old college try at reading the Silmarillion but never had a chance. I'm amazed that there are people who got this far.

Someone posted a site that mentioned Gandalf was given a ring of fire, was this a ring of power connected to the one ring? Were the rings given to the dwarven kings ever accounted for?

As for wether Tolkien meant for there to be allegory or not I don't think the fact that he denied it neccessarily means it wasn't there. Many authors deny obvious allegories in their work but current events working into your work, subconsciously or not, sometimes cannot be helped. Tolkien can deny it all he likes but you can read the worries of the time right there on his pages.

	17-05-2003 10:51									#28
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quote: Were the rings given to the dwarven kings ever accounted for?

Yes. IIRC, four of them were consumed by dragons and the other three taken by Sauron (or the other way around; I can't remember which).

	17-05-2003 10:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Yes. IIRC, four of them were consumed by dragons and the other three taken by Sauron (or the other way around; I can't remember which).

Were the dwarves attached when they were consumed?

	17-05-2003 10:59									#30
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Possibly, though they wouldn't have been much left afterwards. The ones taken by dragons were melted...