17-05-2003 07:40									#61
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I dont get why PBS needs gov't funding... they got numerous fund-raisers (let people who enjoy the programming pay for it... duh), corporate donations, and even though they claim to not have commercials, they do got numerous commercials between shows.

And several educational cable networks have done pretty well for themselves...

	17-05-2003 07:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Shi : This is the kind of conceptions that let the quality of TV sunk completely. In this domain, competition and market demands kill creativity and quality rather than helping it, because the channels need a regular audience they are sure to bring only through a combo of used methods and brainless programs.

Actually, the granting of airwave monopolies to the Big Three did far more damage to the quality and diversity of American television than anything "market demands" accomplished.

It is only with the advent of cable television (another "market demand") and the proliferation of specialized channels (once again brought about by that evil devil "market demand") that the overall quality of television programming started to rise again.

If the government wants to fund their own TV channel, fine. But don't tell me it is necessary because it's because there's nothing else worth watching. This argument would've floated in 1973, but not 2003.

	17-05-2003 07:42									#63
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quote: Becuase we realy don;t need any new planes to mainitan air superiority.

Eventually we do. You can't have F-15s in 2050. You have to have a gradual process to improve planes. You can't simply jump from a F-15 to an F-40 (assuming each number is a newer model, etc).

quote: Oh, and if you see more than one PBS show a year then you probably have gotten more out of PBS than you ever out in as tax revenue, so attacks against PBS are not based on money, but ideology (like Floyd's libertarian assault)

Perhaps... but I believe the last PBS show I've seen was back in 1985 or something... so I haven't gotten my money's worth in a while .

	17-05-2003 07:42									#64
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PBS had to get corporate commercials and increase the time for fund raising because Gov. aid was cut severely. They didn;t have any corporate commercials until the mid-90's, though they did have a few things sponsored by corporations, like Mobil Masterpiece Theater.

	17-05-2003 07:44									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Perhaps... but I believe the last PBS show I've seen was back in 1985 or something... so I haven't gotten my money's worth in a while .

Well, then you have missed some great programing. Frontline is always good, the News Hour excellent, and various short series, like The Civil war or The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow are great.

	17-05-2003 07:45									#66
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Indeed JohnT, the context is different when there is pay-per-view specialized TV around (I am still traumatized by the latest time I watched a private general channel in Germany a few days ago, so it explains where my thought process comes from).
But IIUC, the very interest of PBS was to bring quality education / children programs / news without having to pay for the network, except through taxes ? In this case, I think it is great, because it gets rid of one financial barrier to reach a better education

	17-05-2003 07:46									#67
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to add onto what Imran said considering military technology, the United States Air Force is not as far ahead of the rest of the world as you would think... The Su-31, Mirage 2000, the Eurofighter... all these aircraft are just as capable as our F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's...

	17-05-2003 07:47									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 So if you say "Well, PBS can't be funded cause they don't have enough viewers" can easily be applied to public schools. Bottom line: If students dont want to go to school, then public schools will fail. If people dont want to watch PBS, then it will fail. They both are educational, thats their primary reason for both of their existences.....

Public TV vs. Public Schooling is a quite inapt analogy in that children under the age of 16 are forced by law to attend schools. Until such a law passes for the viewing of TV, please stop with this silly line of reasoning.

	17-05-2003 07:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer to add onto what Imran said considering military technology, the United States Air Force is not as far ahead of the rest of the world as you would think... The Su-31, Mirage 2000, the Eurofighter... all these aircraft are just as capable as our F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's...

And yet, few of those states have the ability to knock out ground radar, spot their aircraft much sooner than they can ours, and thus shoot, so forth and so on, the things that make our airforce trully superior.

If the North koreasn bought 200 Su-31's tommorrow, we would still wipe the floor with them in the air, with few if any American loses. Its not the coffin that matters but the guy inside (and all the systems outside helping him along as well).

	17-05-2003 07:52									#70
	Full PM-box? Change here!

But one day, GePap, the other countries will have similar radar to ours. If we stand still, we will be passed.

	17-05-2003 07:57									#71
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and one day they will also have stealth tech, making an overpirced turkey like the F-22 worthless (or no better in relative terms than what we have).

just look at the new name given the F-22, the F/A-22, sicne now the pentagon is syaing we can use the F-22 as a strike craft, just like we turned the F-15 into one. Only probem, to do so means adding all these external bomb pylons 9or whatever they are techincally called), just making this wonderful F-22 NON stealth.

Each F-22 is far too expensive (the program is already far too overbudget), and given that we also plan to bring the JSF in, what the hell is the point!?

	17-05-2003 08:02									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Public TV vs. Public Schooling is a quite inapt analogy in that children under the age of 16 are forced by law to attend schools. Until such a law passes for the viewing of TV, please stop with this silly line of reasoning.

I was waiting for someone to say this

This is WHY public schools are alive. Quite a big percent of children dont even attend school even though its law. Do you think they would if they knew they would have "no consequences" if they could get away with it?

Not to mention government funding, of course

	17-05-2003 08:02									#73
	Suffering from ads?

I do think that private contractors are taking advantage of the government sometimes though... When the F-16 was produced, General Dynamics (that was the company right?) sold each plane for a mere 4 million a piece if i remember correctly.

	17-05-2003 08:02									#74
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Uhm, GePap/Imran, isn't this line of reasoning getting a bit off-topic?

	17-05-2003 08:04									#75
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Uhm, GePap/Imran, isn't this line of reasoning getting a bit off-topic?

It's just as entertaining to watch as the original debate, though

	17-05-2003 08:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 I was waiting for someone to say this This is WHY public schools are alive. Quite a big percent of children dont even attend school even though its law. Do you think they would if they knew they would have "no consequences" if they could get away with it? Not to mention government funding, of course

I'm not even too sure what your point is, Tass, but it still doesn't obviate the fact that it remains a bad analogy which does nothing for or against your position.

	17-05-2003 08:08									#77
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Yes, yes it is.

So to return to PBS:

Things like the History Channel, TLC, Discovery, National Geographic, Animal Planet (add Bravo and the Fine arts channel, Food network, Nickelodeon) all together still could not make up for the end of PBS, specially in places like informing the public of current, no history, non-cop, hostipal, dinosaur related events. None of these channels (nor the "news" channels, or the netowrks) offer anything like Frontline, NOW (though some probalby find it stilted), the News Hour, or big event series that do cost a lot to produce. Even PB had been forced to add more 'popular' programing, like "fronteri house', or "1900 house" (from england) to get more viewers.

but again, just think, to get the same things as you get from PBS you need to have TLC, discovery, History Channel, Food network, Foine Arts Channel, Animal Planet and so forth, which will cost you minimum of 30 bucks a month, at the possibly cheapest place you can in the US for cable. All the while, each taxpaying unit spends little more than 2-4 bucks a YEAR on PBS.

	17-05-2003 08:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap which will cost you minimum of 30 bucks a month,

Here, its 45.

Let us compare costs

540 vs 4.

You save 536 a year

	17-05-2003 09:01									#79
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only 2-4 dollars a year?

though i think the idea of pbs using tax payer money is wrong, that's very little money so i got no problem with pbs getting gov't funding...

	17-05-2003 09:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer to add onto what Imran said considering military technology, the United States Air Force is not as far ahead of the rest of the world as you would think... The Su-31, Mirage 2000, the Eurofighter... all these aircraft are just as capable as our F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's...

If the military technology of any other country can match the military technology of ours, than something is seriously wrong with out military, since we're spending far more on the military than any other country.

	17-05-2003 09:04									#81
	Got spare money?

and you know what... i had got free cable... so i would rather pay nothing...

	17-05-2003 09:12									#82
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Some facts about PBS worth noting: (admittedly from a possibly biased source )


http://www.pbs.org/insidepbs/facts/faq1.html

quote: The public TV audience reflects the social and economic makeup of the nation. 70.9% of all American television-owning families - 75.7 million households representing 143.6 million people - watched public television in October 2002, with the average home tuning in for over seven and a half hours during the month.

quote: Public TV Funding Public TV's total national, regional and local revenue in FY00 totaled $1.6 billion, according to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB). Leading sources of revenue: members (23.5%); state governments (18.3%); CPB and federal grants/contracts (16.4%); businesses (16.1%); state colleges and universities (6.5%); and foundations (5.5%). 4.5 million individuals and families contributed $380 million to public TV in FY00. PBS Budget PBS' operating revenue has grown from $262 million in FY98 to a projected $324 million in FY03, a 24% increase in just five years, largely from non-member revenue sources.

So about 35% of 325 million is paid for by the (state and local) government, or about $110 million (give or take)

So the 1-2$ is right (if not an overestimate)

	17-05-2003 09:21									#83
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Hey, I was right! Woohoo!

Basically, the money spent on PBS des not really take funding away from anything else (110 million, that;s what, 1 F-22?). And I do think that is is worth it for thre gov. to help give the people a TV channel that reachs all and is worth watching.
Without PBS, there would have been, for example, No Mister Rogers, or Sesame Street. Or Frontline!

	17-05-2003 09:29									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Without PBS, there would have been, for example, No Mister Rogers, or Sesame Street.

And I woudn't have been intrduced to British sci-fi, drama, britcoms, or Mystery! until a far later age (if ever). Gads, what a horrible thought.

	17-05-2003 09:31									#85
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My house probably watches about 1-3 hours of PBS a day. It is the channel of Barney and Sesame Street, after all.

	17-05-2003 09:41									#86
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If those statistics are true, then PBS should be easily able to attain corporate sponsorship for commercial time.
Too bad they don't play any specials on the Constitution because then some of you might see why the government should NOT be funding them.

	17-05-2003 09:52									#87
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There is nothing in the constitution that stops the government from funding the arts, or any other medium, unless you are reading some "other" constitution we know little about. That must be it.

if anything, news coverage on PBS is more turstworthy and less partisan than on any of the private news sources.

	17-05-2003 09:56									#88
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Please tell me then GePap, where it says in the Constitution where the government CAN fund the arts? Which amendment or article? Last time I checked one of the only things they were supposed to do was national defense.

	17-05-2003 09:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There is nothing in the constitution that stops the government from funding the arts, or any other medium, unless you are reading some "other" constitution we know little about. That must be it.

Unless he thinks that it has to be explicitly stated in the constitution - in which case funding for highways, the air force, etc, would also be unconstitutional.

And, of course, if legal scholars really thought PBS was unconstitutional, itwould have gone to the courts...

quote: if anything, news coverage on PBS is more turstworthy and less partisan than on any of the private news sources.

Here I'm affraid I have to disagree with you. I think, in terms of news, pbs can be just as biased as the major networks when it comes to the news (although I admit that some of the other news networks have probably been becoming far more blatent in their bias in recent years), although they do tend to show sides not always covered by the other networks.

Just another piece to the puzzle...

	17-05-2003 10:01									#90
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GePap: If PBS is so good, it should be able to draw a sizable audience, hence it should not need government subsidy.